Interview with Jewell Lay

The following is an unrehearsed taped interview with Jewell Gayton Lay, 530 North Greenville Street, Harrodsburg, Kentucky. She is a teacher at Bate Middle School in Danville, Kentucky. The interview was conducted by David R. Davis for the Oral History Center of Eastern Kentucky University. The interview was conducted at Bate Middle School in Danville, Kentucky on October 8, 1980 at 3 o'clock p.m.

DAVIS: Could you give me your full name, please?

LAY: Jewell Lay.

DAVIS: Your maiden name?

LAY: Gayton. Jewell Gayton Lay.

DAVIS: What about something about your family history?

LAY: Something about my family history, like what? Where I was born? When?

DAVIS: Uh-huh.

LAY: I was born May 22, 1929 at Burgin, Kentucky, Mercer County. And I grew up 1:00in the country with six sisters and three brothers. I can tell you I attended elementary school. I attended elementary school in Burgin.

DAVIS: What were your parents' names?

LAY: My mother's name is Jeanne Gayton and my father's name is Will Gayton.

DAVIS: What'd they do for a living?

LAY: My father farmed and my mother did work at home.

DAVIS: You went to elementary school at . . . ?

LAY: Elementary school in Burgin, and, of course, that was an all black school at that time. Then, I went to West Side High School, an all black, Negro high 2:00school in Harrodsburg. I finished eighth grade in Burgin at the colored elementary school that was called then. Then we were bussed to Harrodsburg to attended the all black West Side High School. After finishing high school I went to Wilberforce, Ohio a suburb of Xenia, Ohio because _____.

DAVIS: What year was that? Do you remember?

LAY: Uh, 1947. '47 until '51. And then I finished in '51. I taught an 3:00elementary school there one year where I went to school as an elementary student . . .

DAVIS: In Burgin?

LAY: In Burgin. But, I didn't . . . That was three or four grades in one building and I didn't like that so I didn't apply for the job the next year.

(Tape recorder turned off.) (Tape recorder turned on.)

DAVIS: Where did you go to graduate school?

LAY: I did my graduate work at University of Kentucky.

DAVIS: What year?

LAY: It was off and on because I went during the summers. Right before I did my graduate work, I taught at West Side High School from 1954 to '56, thereabouts. 4:00And then, I left and went to New York. And I stayed in New York. Then, in '57, I got a job at Bate as an elementary teacher.

DAVIS: And you finished your graduate work at U.K.?

LAY: And I went to graduate school after '57 somewhere between '57 off and on to somewhere like '68 because I got another elementary certificate from grade 1 through 6, and then, after I got the elementary certificate, then, I started to at _____ U.K. __ in '68.

DAVIS: Now, when you went to New York, after you taught at West Side High 5:00School, did you teach in New York?

LAY: No, I applied for a job there and I decided I didn't want to stay in New York, so I left and came back.

DAVIS: But you married at this time?

LAY: No. No. I wasn't married.

DAVIS: What part of New York was it?

LAY: Uh, in Brooklyn, New York.

DAVIS: When you came back, what did you do? You started teaching at Bate in what year?

LAY: In '57. See, I lost my job in Harrodsburg really as a result of integration. They hadn't exactly taken . . . They removed the high school students, but they kept the elementary students. So, I didn't get a job after '56 because they moved the West Side black school students to Harrodsburg High School.

DAVIS: What do you . . . Did you know anything about the Danville school situation before you started there?

LAY: Yes, I did. Because I knew the principal and that was at the old Bate School. I knew many of the teachers that were in the Bate system at that time.

DAVIS: So you were in Harrodsburg in '54 when the Supreme Court decision, Brown versus Board of Education.

LAY: Hmm-Mmm.

DAVIS: What was the reaction in the school where you were teaching and the community in general? What do you think the attitude of whites and blacks?

LAY: Well, the attitude of some of the blacks, they felt that it was going to be better in ways, and then, of course, many of the blacks felt that the blacks were going to lose their identity. They would not have the opportunity to, you know, participate in some of the clubs. They were not there to enjoy possibly some of the leadership kinds of roles that they had at West Side. Some of the parents knew this. I think there were many whites that definitely did not want that. I guess for some, as in their own way, wouldn't make a whole lot of 8:00difference. But, I think the fear was on the part of the parents, the black parents, was how their children would be treated by both the teachers, the administration, and the students. They really had a fear for that in Harrodsburg community integrated school system.

DAVIS: Would you say that the people assumed that the West Side was generally satisfied with their own school?

LAY: At first, they weren't. It's possible, maybe, I don't know how long, maybe the first four or five years, they were not satisfied at all. Because . . . In 9:00fact, I know that I had a few distant relatives of my husband's that were there and they fared very, very badly at the school by both students, mostly, the students, and then some teachers.

DAVIS: Before the decision was rendered, what, would you say, what differences could you see in the quality of education between Harrodsburg schools and the black school?

LAY: Well, I don't know about quality of the teachers themselves, how well they were prepared academically, but I did know about the courses that were offered 10:00at the high school, at Harrodsburg High School, that were not offered at the black schools. For instance, home economics was taught at the Harrodsburg High School and, see West Side was small, and the principal was a woman. She had been told by the superintendent that it was just too expensive to offer home economics for the students at West Side School. And, the West Side students had no access to any kind of industrial arts program, no kind of business preparation, nothing of that sort. So, as far as being exposed of the number of 11:00different kinds of classes or the learning situation, as far as the exposure to the classes being offered, I knew that they would fare better even if they weren't treated well, those that really had a desire to learn could probably put up with the harsh treatment that they got in order to benefit having been exposed to typing, cooking, sewing, and the active football team.

DAVIS: Would you say, West Side had the facilities,

LAY: In part . . .

DAVIS: but it was just that the money wasn't?

LAY: They really probably didn't have the space in the sense, and what, you 12:00know, when they are, when people really feel the need and the desire for things, they create the space. So, that really could've been attended to.

DAVIS: After the decision, what move did . . . I'm asking about Harrodsburg first, what move did the Harrodsburg Board of Education make? Did it make any changes in the situation in 1964 or I mean '54? Did they move to integrate at that time or did they wait?

LAY: No, I believe I can remember. The decision was rendered in 1954. Is that 13:00right? And, see they did not integrate schools until . . . I think it was in 1956, because that's when it was so funny, that the superintendent was somewhat of a young man at Harrodsburg High School in '56, and he had often times long before that, would come in the classroom and visit with all his workers and he'd say he thoroughly enjoyed what we were doing. Then, the toward the end of the year, he would come in and sit. And I think that my principal told me that he tried about three different times before he could get the nerve to tell me that the board had decided that they couldn't hire me to teach at Harrodsburg High 14:00School. So, finally, he couldn't put it off any longer. Then, he came, not in front of anyone, but after school was over, and asked me how did I feel about it. Well, I told him that I didn't really have any hard feelings, and certainly not toward him but I told him that I had expected that because I didn't think that the new school would have wanted me.

DAVIS: So, in '56, when you had the chance to teach at Harrodsburg High School you were denied it?

LAY: Right.

DAVIS: Were there any black teachers from West Side that moved to the city school?

LAY: Nobody went to the city system at that time. They took the students, but they didn't take any faculty.

DAVIS: Even the teachers that had tenure?

LAY: Yes. They didn't. They didn't even offer us the privilege of being asked 15:00to go to the new school.

DAVIS: Did anybody do anything legally to rock ____?

LAY: No, they didn't.

DAVIS: There were tenure laws at that time, weren't there?

LAY: Yes, there was. But, most licensed as many as I can remember that probably the three teachers that were affected the most didn't have tenure. I was one. There was a young man and a lady that left. She had been there but we knew that we were not going to be hired. So, she left I think when the year was over. And one of the teachers that had tenure, she was gone. She left to go to California, I think in maybe '55, the year '55. She quit at the end of that 16:00year, because we knew then that we would not be hired at the new school, at least we thought that way.

DAVIS: How many . . . Was there anyone on the faculty that got a job in Fayetteville and Danville in'55?

LAY: Mary Pittman wasn't there when I was at West Side, but she left West Side and came . . . She stayed at West Side for a while because they retained grades 1 through 8 there for, I don't remember, but they retained grades 1 through 8 for several years.

DAVIS: Was it an integrated situation?

LAY: No. It was still all black.

DAVIS: It was still all black.

LAY: Still all black. And Mary Pittman was there for a while. Then when they moved grades 1 through 8, she wasn't given a job. She went to Hopkinsville and 17:00taught for a while and then she applied for a job at Bate and received one.

DAVIS: Did you have any tip-off at all? You said you kind of expected it and the students moving to the Harrodsburg High School. How much knowledge did the teachers and the school administration give?

LAY: None of the teachers directly. They had talked to the principal of West Side. So, the principal knew that and I would think that as near as I can remember, she probably knew that around the beginning of the year that the school would not be open as an all black school in '57 or '56.

DAVIS: So, they just waited a long time or the last minute to tell the staff. When you came to Danville, what kind . . . was the atmosphere different than it was in Harrodsburg?

LAY: You see, Danville didn't . . . Danville was still all black when I came to Danville. They had not done anything. It was sort of like a free will thing in Danville at the time.

DAVIS: Were there many people who took advantage of this? Or was it a person from Bate to go to Danville High School just for a change?

LAY: I think so, yes.

DAVIS: What kind of . . . What kind of response did they get?

LAY: Well, a few of the students were anxious to get to Danville High School, and surprisingly enough, when they left and went to Danville High School, and then they came and said to some of us, as far as the things that were being taught and the manner they were being presented, they didn't find a great deal of difference. So, that was a big surprise to our students that . . . I don't know what they expected in their classrooms, but they just knew that everybody would be bubbling over with knowledge and skills and that sort of thing and in 20:00some instances, it wasn't even as good as it was at Bate.

DAVIS: Can you think of any students who went to Danville High School and graduated? Went from Bate School to Danville High School?

LAY: Right now, the only one I can think of was, um, Gleneva McCowan.

DAVIS: What was her first name?

LAY: Gleneva. G-L-E-N-E-V-A.

DAVIS: McCowan.

LAY: Uh-huh. M-C-C-O-W-A-N.

DAVIS: She did graduate from there?

LAY: Yes. I think yes, she did.

DAVIS: And what . . . on this free will thing, if they . . . What if . . . Were there any students from Danville High School who came to Bate?

LAY: No. No.

DAVIS: Can you think of any students who went to Danville High School from Bate but came back to Bate?

LAY: I don't know that they did. They might have been, but if that had happened, I don't think it had. It might have.

DAVIS: But as far as you remember, once they were there, they usually stayed?

LAY: Usually stayed or, you know, they dropped out, but they didn't come back to Bate.

DAVIS: What was the reaction to a black student at Bate to their peers who went to Danville High School?

LAY: Well, they didn't like it. Those that stayed at Bate, because many of the students at Bate see didn't have . . . they didn't have the same kind of 22:00feelings like the students at West Side because Bate students were exposed to a number of ... and more often. I don't know that there was a lot at Danville High School that wasn't offered at Bate at that time. But the students felt like the kids that went to Danville High School thought they were going to be, I guess, you'd say better informed. You know, they were going to get to go to Danville High school and this would be a good thing, so, the students that were at Bate, and stayed at Bate couldn't care less about those people that left their alma mater at Bate to go to Danville High School.

DAVIS: What about the . . . What was your reaction to the teachers who went to Danvile?

LAY: Well, I remember Gleneva coming to ask me about how did I feel about her going to Danville High School, and I told her that I felt like if she thought she could better herself by going there then I would think that would the thing for her to do. But, I also told her that when she went she should be ready not to be accepted, what you would say like with open arms from either the faculty or/and the students. At that time, I don't think Danville High School, they absolutely were not ready for blacks. You see, they were doing it on a voluntary basis. So, I didn't try to . . . In fact, in all probability, I 24:00probably said something to the class as a whole that if they felt that they would be better, that they would learn more, that the faculty was a great deal better prepared, then that should be the place that they should go. But I definitely talked to Gleneva about it.

DAVIS: When this invitation was extended to Bate School to attend Danville High School, do you think it was more of we would like some token studnets at Danville High School or was it really sincerely meant that anyone who wanted to come was welcome with open arms from the administration not just the school?

LAY: I had the feeling that it was probably more or less tokenism than anything 25:00else but they probably thought that maybe they wouldn't come.

DAVIS: What about the rivalry like in sports and so on between the two high schools? Did they play each other in football and basketball?

LAY: No, they didn't. Only except some times they by chance you see met during the latter after the . . .

DAVIS: at the tournament?

LAY Uh-huh. At the tournament and of course, the boys were anxious. The Bate boys were anxious to play the Danville High School boys in order to show their expertise in playing basketball, so they really always ready and anxious.

DAVIS: Um. I'll tell you what, let me turn the tape over now.

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1. BEGINNING OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2.

DAVIS: What did you say? Did you live in Harrodsburg or Danville when you first started teaching?

LAY: When I first started teaching at Bate.

DAVIS: Were you married?

LAY: I had just gotten married. So, when I first started teaching in Danville, I was living in Burgin, in a suburb of Danville, and then I got married and moved to Harrodsburg.

DAVIS: And you lived there ever since? Did you take the Danville paper?

LAY: I didn't take it regularly. I could just pick it up at random at the news stand.

DAVIS: Let's say between 1957 and 1963 before integration came, what was the attitude of the local newspaper to the events of integration, unrest in the south, things like that. Do you think they . . . How do you think the press handled that?

LAY: Well, it's been so long, it's kind of hard to try to remember but, it seems like it was always news events or anything related to school integration or any disruptive activity or anything like that. It was always played up. . . and I 28:00guess, I don't know if I'd say one-sided, but it got a lot of publicity.

DAVIS: Were there any events in town that got published, that you can think of at all?

LAY: Not that I can . . .

DAVIS: So, really what you're speaking of is national or happened across the country?.

LAY: Across the country, right. In other parts more or less.

DAVIS: You mentioned while we were taking a time out that you had been offered a position, you had been offered a job in your hometown.

LAY: Yes, on two different occasions. Once I received a telephone call from the superintendent asking me how did I like working in Danville and see if I had 29:00considered applying for a job there at the Harrodsburg High School. And I told him no, that I hadn't. So, he invited me to come to his office and talk with him. He said he would like to have me in the system. And at that time, I simply thanked him.

DAVIS: What year was that? Was it between '57 and '63? Which was before the schools were integrated?

LAY: No, it was after the integration. I had been . . . I was already working in Danville and that was well after integration. And then, on another occasion, I got a letter from the superintendent asking me if I would come for an interview. But, I didn't. I called and told him that I had been in Danville. I 30:00was satisfied with the way administration treated me and the principal of the school, and at that time, that was . . . The letter, I think was probably as late as maybe in the '70s. Because I believe Mr. Snowden was the principal here at that time. I told him that I never have to worry about materials that we use or anything like that. So, I thanked him sincerely but I just wasn't interested in coming to Harrodsburg.

DAVIS: Okay. How did the integration of schools work here? Were they gradually changed from elementary grades or do you remember how it was done?

LAY: Well, after they took the high school, then they moved . . .

DAVIS: That was the first move they made?

LAY: Yeah. That was the first move after you could go on a volunteer basis. Then, they moved the high schools. Then, they integrated the 7th and 8th grade.

DAVIS: And then, the elementary schools?

LAY: And then, the elementary schools.

DAVIS: In 1963, that was the last year of Bate High School, '62-'63. When the board met to decide the fate of Bate High School for school integration, was there any doubt, you think in the, let's say, among the teachers or the community that Bate would cease to be a school after that year? Did you get the same kind of warning that you might've gotten in Harrodsburg that you didn't 32:00get? How did that work? Did you know about it?

LAY: Well, we knew about it, but I don't . . . Nobody had . . . I was thinking at the time that Bate would not exist and it might have been because the people probably in Danville felt just a little bit differently about the faculty in the school and what should and should not happen to them.

DAVIS: Would you say that when the board made a decision, do you remember how many board members there were?

LAY: No, I don't.

DAVIS: What about the superintendent? What was his . . . Who was the superintendent when you first came in '57?

LAY: Okay, when I first came in '57, it was . . . I think it was Mr. Robinson. 33:00I don't know if his first name was John Robinson.

DAVIS: James Robinson?

LAY: Well, his last name was Robinson. Then, after he . . . I think he died. He died. Then, we had . . . I don't know the man's first name but his last name was Taylor.

DAVIS: Leonard Taylor.

LAY: Hmm-Mmm.

DAVIS: He was here in '63 then.

LAY: Yes.

DAVIS: What was the attitude of the black teachers toward . . .

LAY: Toward what?

DAVIS: Toward both at that time? Did they really care or were they . . .

LAY: Do you mean the attitude of people had toward the board?

DAVIS: More toward the superintendent. Was he a fair person?

LAY: Well, I think most of the faculty felt that as far as his power went, I 34:00think, that he was fair. I believe that most of the stuff that he was fair. Of course, I guess he was limited you know in what he could do or even say. It's been so long to try to recall this kind of thing.

DAVIS: Let me move to this question. I asked you a minute ago asked who the black students were about . . . Bate students going to Danville High School. Now, what do they think about losing their high school?

LAY: Well, they were very much upset. In fact, many of the black students that 35:00were at Bate at the time in high school, they had said, you know, they weren't going. They were going to quit school. Some were wanting to go to other high schools in other places, I think, rather than go to Danville High School. Some of them really didn't want to go because they really felt that they were not wanted and that they wouldn't be happy there.

DAVIS: What about the staff, the staff at Bate? How did they react at first?

LAY: Well, I . . . now . . . .

DAVIS: I'm leading up to another.

LAY: I'm trying to remember that . . . probably the staff at Bate would have probably protested had they not been employed one way or another at the Danville 36:00High School or some provision made for some kind of employment. They would not have accepted maybe somebody coming and saying, you know, the high school being moved and you don't have a job. I don't think that the faculty at Bate would have accepted tht.

DAVIS: Was the change itself entirely a smooth operation?

LAY: Yes. Those that were teaching in an area that Danville High School had, you know, a place, like the social studies teacher, the business teacher, that sort of thing, they . . . I don't think that the schools any different.

DAVIS: What about the teachers themselves, how was the staff arrangement? Did any teacher lose their job as a result of Danville's integration?

LAY: I didn't lose a job but because see when we were here at the high school, I taught the chemistry and the biology and they didn't need a chemistry teacher at the high school at that time. So see, I taught 8th grade 'cause my certificate would take care of that. So, I . . .

DAVIS: So, you really never did teach at Danville High School?

LAY: No, I was there at the high school in the time of intervention between the 38:00high school and the elementary school. Because the 7th and the 8th grade students were moved into the high school for that one year because there was no place at Bate. So, I was in the building, but I was not teaching high school people. I was teaching integrated 7th and 8th grade students.

DAVIS: Did they many teachers at all that . . . Bate teachers who say were just put out of a job when there might have been an opening for them?

LAY: I don't know because now, let's see, one of the teachers retired before 39:00then, and I could be wrong, but I have to say I don't know. I don't remember.

DAVIS: What about Mr. Summers, who was the principal? What happened to him? Did he remain the principal?

LAY: Well, he stayed on as the principal, if I'm not mistaken until they were fully integrated. So, he was, I guess, you could say one the persons that was displaced because then, he was given a job in the office, central office doing something, but I forget now what it was. But, I do remember having to talk to him from time to time if certain things wasn't being done, particularly, ______.

DAVIS: He was, rather than a principal. Once you moved in . . . Once you came back to Bate, you'd been at Bate ever since?

LAY: Yes.

DAVIS: What was it, a year after, before integration, when the new Danville High School was built?

LAY: Hmm-Mmm.

DAVIS: I wanted to ask you about the administration after full integration had been acheived, if Mr. Summers was working in the central office, who was the principal at Bate or who was the first principal of Bate Junior High School?

LAY: Mr. Snowden was the first one. At the school there.

DAVIS: Okay. Was the staff at Bate, was it made up primarily of black teachers 41:00or . . . ?

LAY: No. It was mostly white.

DAVIS: It was you and Who were the names of the other black teachers there?

LAY: Miss Price and Naomi is a Price, she was a Fisher then, and if I'm not mistaken, they may be the only ones that I know of. Those were the only ones that were here.

DAVIS: What kind of working environment . . . Did you feel comfortable teaching in a situation to begin with? What color was the atmosphere like at Bate?

LAY: Well, that first year, I don't remember that. There might have been a little, what you would say, a little uneasiness. I don't think it was . . . it was not anything that was come and go from Mr. Snowden as a principal. It might have been that the idea of some of the white people from maybe, those that were in Bate, that had not been in Bate before, felt a little uncomfortable. Maybe not overly anxious to just talk freely over anything. Maybe for about . . . 43:00now, all of them were not that way. Some few of the teachers but I would say more or less by December or January, maybe a little bit of feeling of changing that might have been there was lessened somewhat by January. Now, Mrs. Park was here, there was another, a black teacher.

DAVIS: What was her name?

LAY: Lindell Park. She taught 7th grade science and I think a math class. And I taught all science and then, there was another white teacher that science. Her name was Joann Dale. So, there Mrs. Park was here.

DAVIS: Did the administration, Mr. Snowden, the board, the superintendent, did 44:00they make strong efforts to make sure that the plan was working. Do you think they went the extra mile to make sure that the plan was working?

LAY: I don't know that they went the extra mile but I do think often times, I'm saying this now on the part of Mr. Snowden, that if he made any difference as far as I could tell, it was hard to see it. I'm thinking in terms of disciplining the students, but most times, when you would, whether it was a 45:00black teacher or white teacher, would have a complaint to Mr. Snowden, he always wanted to hear the student's side also. And sometimes that didn't go too well with the teachers. So, as far as the students, you know, were concerned, I do think he really made an genuine effort and an extra effort to make certain that everybody felt that they were being treated, you know, fairly.

DAVIS: Since you have interest in both systems, you had children attending the Harrodsburg schools and you taught in Danville schools, can you make any comparison between the integration plans of both systems and how well they worked?

LAY: Well, as far as now, I think I find more . . . I believe there are more 46:00students involved in activities and leadership positions in the Harrodsburg school system than there are in the Danville system. Now, I say that because my daughter was finished in '77 and was president of the senior class and she had all of the responsibilities of planning class night and that sort of thing, and the principals themselves relied heavily on her. At that same year, there was a black student at Harrodsburg who was poresident of student council, they had been captain of the football team and they'd been on the . . . blacks always on the speech club. So, I think maybe for the students having the feeling of being 47:00involved and part of the things that go on, like my oldest daughter worked on the yearbook, and my youngest daughter now is a junior there and is on student council and has been the class vice-president, I think her sophomore year. So, I believe that students in Harrodsburg enjoy more of a feeling of being a part of a total activities that are going on at the school than probably they do at the Danville High School. Now, the Harrodsburg High School had a black 48:00homecoming queen maybe a couple of years ago, and that sort of thing. I think the students enjoy that kind of relationship with the students and working in the office. Both of my daughters have worked in the office at Harrodsburg High School, being responsible for going to town and purchasing things and calling other students for the coaches and all. The principal will do that and ask them to do that. It's not just my daughters. Everyone has enjoyed that kind of feeling of being a part of the school system. And I don't know, but I don't see it in the paper or in talking to some of the students from the old Danville High 49:00School that may be on the part of the students don't either put themselves in a position to be asked to do these things or I don't think my daughters put themselves in a position to be asked other than they were just there. And had the know-how and not because they belonged to me, because there were other blacks doing some of the same thing. Last year, uh, 1979, there was a black girl who was president of the senior class. So, I think the students enjoy a feeling of being a part of the things that go on better in Harrodsburg than they do in Danville.

DAVIS: Do you have any last observations of your teaching experience in Danville?

LAY: No, nothing other than, I mean, I've enjoyed most of the time.

DAVIS: Still enjoy it?

LAY: Yes, I do. I thoroughly enjoy the time that I spend here. And all of the stuff that I believe that, you know, you have some things that we would get our hands on, but other than that, I don't think I ever put in a request of any material or asked for anything else and if I had to miss school for any reason or anything like that, nobody is here to question anything like that at all. And the materials that we've needed to work with. I've gotten . . . I don't remember having had to make any contact with any irate parents.

DAVIS: I appreciate you taking this time for the interview. It will be useful for scholarly purposes. I could let you listen to it before I file it away. But, I do want to thank you again for taking this afternoon.

LAY: You're welcome.

DAVIS: Thank you.