Interview with Roy Perry

William H. Berge Oral History Center Interview with Roy Perry October 25,1981(1982oh033) Conducted By Anna Perry Transcribed by Laurie Wilcox

[ Mr. Roy Perry mumbles and talks fast at times making it difficult to understand every word]

ANNA PERRY: The following was an unrehearsed taped interview with Roy Perry, retired coal miner. The interview was conducted by Anna Perry a student of oral history, for the Oral History Center of Eastern Kentucky University. The interview was con--conducted at Whitley City Kentucky on 25th of October at 4 pm.

ANNA : Thank you for letting me tape our conversation. Uh, the first thing, would you tell me your name?

ROY PERRY: Roy Perry

ANNA: You mind telling me when you was born?

ROY: I was born May 31, 1903, a long time ago.

ANNA: 1903. And what was your dad's name?

ROY: Melton Perry.

ANNA: M-E-L-T-O-N, Melton?

ROY: Um hm.

ANNA: What was your mom's name?

ROY: Jenny, J-E-N however you spell it.

ANNA: What do you remember what her maiden name was? Did you know her maiden name?

ROY: Yeah she was a Brunt

ANNA: Brunt. Do you have any brothers and sister?

ROY: Yeah, I had uh I had seven brothers and three sisters. And one brother deceased. There was eight boys in our family, three girls.

ANNA: What were there name, you remember?

ROY: Well uh starting with the oldest one, the oldest one was John T. We always just called him T. The next one was uh, oldest brother was Ester, next one was Osborn

ANNA: How do you spell Osborn?

ROY: O-S-B-O-R-N. And the next one was Denton

ANNA: D-E-N--

ROY: D-E-N-T-O-N, Denton. And the next one was Avery, he got killed at the mines 2:00[unclear] Bolder in 1918. And my next brother then, the youngest was Raymond. And myself I'm older then Raymond, it's me and then Raymond.

ANNA: Oh it's you and then Raymond?

ROY: Yeah.

ANNA: I never did know how it went.

ROY: Yeah, that's the, that's the way that it went

ANNA: Do you have any sisters?

ROY: I have three sisters, oldest one is Elizabeth, next to her was Della, and the baby sister is Norva.

ANNA: Where were you born?

ROY: Born in May 31, 1903.

ANNA: Where?

ROY: M..

ANNA: Uh huh, where?

ROY: Huh?

ANNA: Where?

ROY: In McCreary county, here. Right here in McCreary County, Kentucky.

ANNA: Uh huh. Were you born in the, what, what you all call the home place where you live right down

ROY: That old home place, well no I was three year old when I moved there.

ANNA: But, but you were born here in McCreary County?

ROY: Born in McCreary County, lived here all my life except the time I lived in 3:00the time I lived in Harlan, between [unclear]

ANNA: Um, did your daddy work in the mines?

ROY: Huh,

ANNA: Did your daddy ever work in the mines?

ROY: No he wasn't a miner; no he might [unclear]. No, he didn't work in the mines. He was a farmer.

ANNA: But you worked in the mines?

ROY: Oh yeah, I started in the mining at 16 year old.

ANNA: Where, where did you start working?

ROY: I started working at Beren Fork, Kentucky coal mine.

ANNA: How long did you work there?

ROY: Well let's see. I started there in 1919 and I worked there until 19 and 22.

ANNA: Where did you go in '22.

ROY: Well I left there, I left Beren Fork in 1922 and I went to Stearns, Kentucky. That's here in McCreary County. And I worked at Stearns until 1925. Then I left there and went to uh Harlan County, Twila Kentucky and stayed there until 1945.

ANNA: So you worked longer there in Twila then anywhere?

ROY: Yeah for 20 years or something.

ANNA: What was, what were the mines like. What were the conditions, working conditions when you first started?

ROY: Well working conditions were pretty good. They always had been pretty good 4:00at that there Creech coal company. They had big coal, five and six foot coal. And there was really pretty good conditions you know. Back then, everything was cheap then you know. But uh Creech was a fine mine, I guess the best mine that's ever been in the state of Kentucky.

ANNA: Was it pretty good safety?

ROY: Yeah had a good safety yeah, good top, good safety mine. So far all over you know that any mine they have tragedies, you know, people hurt and like that. But on the average Creech was about I guess the best mine best mine to work in Harlan County.

ANNA: How come you decided to go to work in Creeches?

ROY: Well, back then you know uh the mines was about the best, you'd make more 5:00money about anything in the country, that's what I mean. Well me and Raymond we went to Louisville and got a job on the railroad there and uh worked a little while, and decided that we'd comeback. We had two brothers worked and lived in Twyla Kentucky, that's Creech Coal worked the winter. So we went back and went there. Well I stayed there until I got hurt in the mines, probably would have stayed latter crippled up.

ANNA: What, how was you hurt?

ROY: I was operating a machine, coal machine. Back then when you operated on, 6:00they had, they had a run on trucks you know on wheels, loaded them up on a truck, you know. And uh I was working two places, cutting two places, driving what you call entry airway and turning off rooms you know for other people to work. And, and the motors coming out with a train of cars and broke a rail on the main line and I didn't know it. And I was riding a cutter bar machine and hit that broke rail sticking up you know about six inches, that throwed me off in front of machine. Part of it run over me, it run up my left leg and broke my pelvis bone twice and broke and my left leg next to my hip, hip joint, and had a back injury.

ANNA: What, what year was that?

ROY: Let's see that was in 19--let's see what year was the war broke out?

ANNA: 1941

ROY: That was in '42., yeah.

ANNA: Well did you work any after that?

ROY: No not for that coal company. No I come down here and bought [unclear] this old place I live on and uh I draw compensation for about two years, and after I recovered I went back to mining down here McCreary County. To work in the coal mine.

ANNA: When you were up at Creeches, what year did you say you went up there I forgot?

ROY: Let's see I went up there in 19--, first year we went we worked one winter 7:00there and quit and then come home me and Raymond did. [Unclear] and we went back, I think it was 25 think it was the last time we went up there. 25 or 26.

ANNA: About what were they paying you then?

ROY: Well they wasn't paying very much I think we were loading coal for about 46 cents a ton. Because it was [unclear] [laughing]

ANNA: Um, were you married when you went up there?

ROY: No, not when we first went there. We both got married after we went to work at Creeches there.

ANNA: Did you uh did you meet you wife up there at Creeches or ?

ROY: No, no I met her before I went up to Creeches. She was uh born and raised in Laurel County pretty close to London. She was raised on a farm too.

ANNA: Now did you take, take her up to Creeches the night you got married?

ROY: Yeah, yeah. Went on to Creeches and stayed there until we had seven children born in Harlan County.

ANNA: What, did you live in uh inside the Twi, in Twila. . .

ROY: No we didn't live in the camp all the time, w--we had a little while before 8:00I, I got hurt and moved, we moved up into the camp. We stayed, lived down; I rented a place down in there. It was a pretty nice little farm; I had oh several acres of land [unclear].

ANNA: Was it uh outside, outside the camp?

ROY: Outside? Yeah probably [unclear]. We stayed there um for oh, we lived in the camp for a little over, I might have lived in the camp two years.

ANNA: Well did you use, did you use the camp doctor or did you use a--

ROY: Oh yeah, we paid the camp doctor by the month. They cut us so much a month for the camp doctor. And he, they had a lots of people you know, some of them own their own homes and raised homes outside the camp.

ANNA: And you raised a garden than?

ROY: Oh yeah, I've always raised a garden. And I had well there several acres of land there, I raised cattle, hogs, and I done, we done pretty good, you know.

ANNA: Well how long would you worked in mines?

ROY: Oh I worked in the mines, all of my mines together I've worked around I'll 9:00say around 32 or maybe 34 years figured all up. That, that I haven't worked that much since I got hurt in the main mine. Yeah I've had a lot of mining experience.

ANNA: Did you work days or?

ROY: I worked uh one, when they put me on the coal machine running cutting goal I worked 5 y--years to the night on the night shift, 5 years to the night and then I got on the day shift and didn't work very long until I got injured.

ANNA: Mph, well when you were when you were digging coal did you have more than one shift or was it just the day shift?

ROY: Oh yeah they had three shifts. They run three shifts a long time. They had the first shift and the second shift and when the shift that went on at eleven o'clock, they called it the hoot owl shift and uh I worked a little of it, I worked a little of all the shifts. But I've done most of my work on the day shift.

ANNA: Well then you'd worked in the mines and did you uh take a shower before 10:00you went on home or did you go home, did you have water and that?

ROY: No they didn't have a bathhouse at Creeches, where I worked we, we, we had to go home and do our own bathing in tubs [unclear]

ANNA: Uh, well let's see if you went in 1925 the union wasn't there yet was it?

ROY: Oh no, no it wasn't.

ANNA: Well, were, were you working at Creeches when the union come?

ROY: Oh yeah, yeah I worked there, it was organized. But there again a lot of that trouble, killing, and fighting going on.

ANNA: Do you remember anything?

ROY: Oh yeah it's something you'll never forget [laughing] everything just happened.

ANNA: About what year did the union come in up there?

ROY: Let's see the union come in there, I guess, I think it must have been about 1936 don't you guess. You ever hear Raymond say anything about that?

ANNA: Yeah I believe I've heard I believe I've heard both of you all say that.

ROY: Yeah, maybe I, I don't know exactly, around 36 or 35 something like that.

ANNA: Around about?

ROY: Around 35 or 36 something like that.

ANNA: Were you, did you join the union?

ROY: Oh yeah I've always been a strong union person.

ANNA: Well did you all have any trouble when you started organizing?

ROY: Well, everybody had trouble. They had gun thugs there you know and they'd cause trouble but you know the camp there they wasn't very hard on the coal uh the employees like most of the companies was, no they didn't wasn't [unclear].

ANNA: When you and Raymond and your other brothers were working uh you were playing music then right?

ROY: Yeah we played music starting when we was little. Yeah, we learned to play music when we was about uh I think it was 12, 15 year old something like that. We used to play at school [unclear], square dances, so forth.

ANNA: And you kept on playing when you went to Creeches, huh?

ROY: Oh yeah, we kept on. The fellow that owned the coal company, Mr. Reynolds, 12:00we called him old man Reynolds, everybody there did, he loved music and had all kind of instruments, and that's where Raymond my brother got that good banjo. That he's a millionaire operator owner, if he found out you were a good banjo picker he just [unclear], you know. I don't, I don't think he ever did pay him anything for that, I never did know for sure, I don't know if he ever did paid him or not. Did he?

ANNA: Yeah he did pay him--

ROY: Did he, I never did know [unclear].

ANNA: So much. I forgot how much.

ROY: Yeah, I don't think he paid him what he paid for it but.

ANNA: No way he did.

ROY: I think that banjo now would sell for six or seven thousand more dollars, yeah.

ANNA: What, what instrument did you play?

ROY: I was a fiddler, an old time fiddler.

ANNA: Do you still fiddle?

ROY: Yeah [unclear] I [unclear]

ANNA: Now, let's see you worked in the mines about what about eight hours a day?

ROY: Yeah, sometimes we worked more than that. Now I run a coal machine for uh 13:00seven years and then we worked, we was on role by then , we cut by the ton and, and it depend on what people had and sometimes you went in before light and come out after day light, sometime you'd go in and come out at midnight. We don the cutting most every night [unclear]

ANNA: Well and then you'd work, work on your farm, right? Take care of that?

ROY: Oh yeah I'd come home and raise corn, tatters, beans, just like I do down here.

ANNA: And then--

ROY: I made as much stuff as I can. I had to, couldn't have gotten by in that depression. Kept hogs, and killed hogs every winter. Kill a beef nearly every winter. You had to manage to live. Yeah, people can manage to live if, if you try.

ANNA: And still have fun, cause you, you all made [unclear] . . . .

ROY: We didn't have money, we had plenty to eat, of course you had to work for 14:00it you know. I'd get out when I come in from work, or the day if I worked in the day, on my off days I'd pick blackberries in them mountain, huckleberries and we would can them up you know.

ANNA: Yeah, did the, the miners when you worked in the mines were you all very interested in the election?

ROY: Oh yeah, yeah, most of them was [unclear].

ANNA: Was there ever any tr..

Roy: Huh?

Anna: Ever any trouble, at election time?

ROY: God yes. One thing I remember, man no buddy will ever forget. Me and 15:00Raymond was working with two Hanson boys, Carl Hanson and Johnson Hanson, it was on a back when that big coal was in it, as high as your head, five and a half six feet of coal. They'd drive a room up narrower about 12 feet and they had to get about 400 ft they'd turn in, what they called flattening, cut the whole thing back down, you know. You could put five or six cars in there then, and we were all four working together on one of them big, we called them long walls. And uh the day before the election why we, we was a little late cleaning up and getting up ready for the next day's work, you know when the election was over the day after the election, and uh I'll say uh we, we was late that evening and missed the man trip . They had a certain time that uh they'd pull [unclear] say 3:30 or something like that. They'd pull the men out and if you wasn't there well the motormen they'd just go on. They didn't know it till they got outside and checked it. And we was late that evening, we decide we'd clean up and just walk out, so we stayed in about 30 minutes late and cleaned up and got ready. And started walking out and the bank boss, he uh when he checked them all out we was missing and he, he sent a motorman and one car , empty coal car, what they rode in and out on. After us to pick us up. Well one thing I remember about that, Raymond was always talking, big mouth you know. [laughing Anna] he asked questions. And when we got into the car why Raymond said Well somebody ain't got long to live have they and the motorman I called him [unclear] I never did know his name, and, and he said "why?," and Raymond said tomorrows election day and 16:00there's always somebody killed. And the next day Johnson Hanson killed two men over the election. I'll you about that--

ANNA: Cause they voted a different way?

ROY: No and I'll tell you what I was told, I wasn't there it was over, this is what, well now, they told me, I worked with him after that. Uh, Johnson and brother and a Hensley boy and a Blanton boy it was, got into a kind of a wrestle of a thing, you know. And uh the Blanton boy got the Hensley boy down, his brother Johnson wouldn't let him up someway and he had a little old 25 automatic, he shot him while they was holding him down. Well the old man Blanton just jerked the pistol out and shot that boy where he was on the ground turned around right quick and shot the old man, uh uh Hensley right in the neck there and killed him. And that was when Johnson was fixing to go into vote, he said. Him and his wife and he had this jumped over bank place built up over the bank from the highway down here. And when that happened so once he just jumped over 17:00the bank and he just [unclear] run over old man Blanton arm and shot him and he fell. When he fell his gun fell out of his hand and, and one of his boys made a dive for the gun and Johnson shot him, killed him. There was five men laying there on the highway in about two or three minutes. Think about that, killed, yeah [Anna coughs]. And I knowed all of them and worked with all them, yeah. Just a thing that happened common fued between Hensley's and Blanton's. And a whole lot bad man, bad people you know. Harlan County, you know what's up.

ANNA: Did you all ever play any jokes on each other in the mine when you was working.

ROY: Oh yeah we, different things or another, and we uh. Yeah a new person come why [unclear] tie his coat up you know. It was one of the Hensley boys card, he 18:00had some way he put a block of coal in your coat sleeve and you couldn't get it out to save your life. Yeah, and he'd catch and put it in their coat sleeve and they'd cut holes in the sleeves to take the coal out. And some of them carried their coats home, and we had always fun you know. [unclear] we'd send them after the red shirt and things like that [laughing] no, there wasn't nothing like that.

ANNA: Oh no, no. Roy: Yeah, we'd tell them to go borrow his shirt, or go [unclear] or borrow the red shirt and there wasn't nothing like that ever made you know. So they'd go up and ask the room man where the red shirt was [laughing]. Maybe they'd give them an old, an old pick or something or another. They'd bring it back down [laughing].

ANNA: Since uh, since you all didn't live in the camp itself did you shop much 19:00at the commissary or did you go down to the market?

ROY: We done both, yeah back than we did. About the time I'd come to work you know when I worked on a day shift. When I worked at night why we hardly trade much at all in the commissary. Little ones, the kids did. We had a trading place down at--

ANNA: Yes, but you didn't use too much script than did you?

ROY: Uh they did at uh, they issued it at the company store. But you know everybody on it for merchandise take scripts as they would any money.

ANNA: Oh you mean outside stores would take it?

ROY: Oh yeah, all the stores there yeah take script. It was the same as money, wanted to trade anything. Just about all over Harlan County.

ANNA: Even in Harlan County they'd take it to?

ROY: Lots of places yeah they'd take it, you know. I think Creeches Coal Company 20:00let these merchants get so much and they'd come up and cash it in. Of course they had to have the script back you know. They'd soon run out if they didn't. They'd cash script back in and that's the reason them merchants take it you know.

ANNA: Yeah [unclear]

ROY: Huh?

ANNA: Yeah. I didn't' know they take it outside camp.

ROY: Yeah, boy yeah they take it. Took it at any store Morlans Creek, I don't know if.

ANNA: So you really could uh do all your shopping with script if you wanted to?

ROY: Oh yeah, yeah you could go down into town and buy any kind of clothes you wanted, expensive. If you had enough script for the paperwork you know.

ANNA: Yeah, well could you draw ahead on the script or. . .

ROY: Uh, they were very particular on that. It depended who you are and how much you worked. A lot of time the company, they'd advance you know a whole lot if you was a good worker and [unclear] they'd advance you. But some they didn't you know, if you, if you were a bad drinker or something like that you know a lot of the time they cut it down to maybe a dollar a day, you know something like that.

ANNA: So you made it pretty good during the depression?

ROY: I made it pretty good but were I was lucky enough to get a place, rent a 21:00place like I did with the land and--

ANNA: Yeah, and you was working the mines.

ROY: Worked the mines during the day. Days when there wasn't any work I'd work on that little farm.

ANNA: You said seven of your kids were born there, were they born at home?

ROY: Seven of them born there in one house, no six born there. One was born in the camp one was born [unclear] down here.

ANNA: Did the let you stay around or send you off somewhere when the babies were born?

ROY: I stayed around. I wanted to see everything was alright [laughing]. No we had a good camp doctor and back then you know they hardly ever went to a hospital. They just, camp doctor would do it. Camp doctor would do [unclear]

ANNA: Uh, was it the same camp doctor the whole time?

ROY: No, I'll tell you during the time we had two doctors. The first doctor we 22:00had was a fella by the name of Dr. Presswood he's an older man. And he went there and another fellow by the name of Painter, Dr. Painter. And he, you remember Painter; he was a fine man too, if ever you could. We paid him so much a month. Something like two dollars a month for every two and a half, it wasn't very expensive. And then we carried hospital at Pineville Kentucky. That's a, paid two dollars a month for hospital and that took care of your whole family no matter what you had or how long you stayed, and you could... The miners, uh you know back in the--it wasn't no bad place to live. See, we had a doctor and we had a hospital paid for, we paid for it you know but small payments but you take five or six hundred men paying all that and that's the hospital collected about that's a thousand to twelve hundred a month and that's pretty good you know.

ANNA: About how many men worked in the mines?

ROY: Ah, they say there had been about around 600 men worked there, of course it could have been both. They had two big mines. I never did know exactly how many.

ANNA: Were, were both mines open when you had started work for them?

ROY: Oh yeah, yeah, well, well in operation I'm sure. I went there they, but they that would have been about 20 years they begin to work out then they didn't work more than two or three years, after I left there. Like four or something.

ANNA: Did any of your--

ROY: When I left uh Raymond he quite too, he didn't work right [unclear], he rented, I think her rented a farm over there. Aimed to work on the farm and he got in with some fellow there on the railroad, a hired man, well understood that my son got a job stayed with the railroad. He had a good job on the railroad. But, I never did, I never did try the railroad uh more after we got done the first time.

ANNA: How long did it take you to get over it after you that motor run over you?

ROY: Well it took me about two years there [unclear] you know my leg broke.

ANNA: Yeah it's a wonder you ever walked again.

ROY: Yeah I could.

ANNA: Did uh any of your children go to school in Creeches?

ROY: Yeah. They went to school there, let's see the boys were getting ready for high school went there, the oldest boy he was about I think he's getting around 16. How old were you Truman when you left there?

TRUMAN: I can't say, I can't remember, I was in the third grade, I don't remember.

ROY: You was about eight or ten wasn't you.

TRUMAN: Yeah about eight or nine.

ROY: Yeah all of the kids went there

ANNA: You said you did in a company house for a little while, how much rent did they charge?

ROY: Oh it wasn't much seems like it was four dollars and a half a month or something like that.

ANNA: Wasn't too much?

ROY: Oh no, no not like it is now oh no.

ANNA: Well, I know what I wanted to ask I wanted to ask say if, if somebody if 25:00they got hurt in the mines or something and they had to retire, could they still live in those company or did they have to move out?

ROY: I think they could, uh I don't believe they would put them out. I don't recall how they done that. I stayed there about a year after, or longer, after I got hurt. No I don't think that the company did that. That was a pretty nice company.

ANNA: Yeah, if you got hurt in their mines they would let you go ahead and live there?

ROY: Live there as long as you wanted to. I did I stayed there before I got able to come down [unclear] old farm [unclear]I worked that year [unclear]

ANNA: When you worked so hard when did you all play music?

ROY: Huh?

ANNA: You worked so hard you worked in the mines and on the farm when did you play music?

ROY: Oh, the night and on, on occasions you know. Yeah maybe they'd have a big sticken or a some kind of a musical contest or and--

ANNA: Oh did you all have contest?

ROY: We was the best we had to be on it. Yeah they'd come to us and we'd play 26:00these things you'd get out there.

ANNA: Did uh, did the miners, did you ever play on a on a baseball team or anything they ever make?

ROY: I, Just the little old teams around there we'd get up ourselves, we played a little bit. I did, I don't remember if Raymond ever played one baseball team or not, but I did.

ANNA: Did you play other camps or what?

ROY: Play other camps, yeah the camp or just the boys in the camp would organize them. It wasn't no league or anything you know we'd just be practicing. Yeah, I was a left hand pitcher.

ANNA: Was you pretty good?

ROY: Well we thought we was you know [laughing]. We'd win sometimes, sometimes we'd lose. Just a past time you know on Sundays mostly.

ANNA: Well there, now how many, there were you and Raymond and what two more brothers working at Creeches.

ROY: Yeah Arthur and Nester. And they raised fine ones [unclear] they've been 27:00there because they let's see I don't remember let's see I can't remember.

ANNA: How did Arthur get hurt?

ROY: He got hurt just like I did with a coal machine.

ANNA: Oh he did?

ROY: Yeah, only his coal machine, he was working on a coal machine, but the rock fell is what hurt him but rock never fell on me. That wreck, broke rail, on the machine, that wreck is what throwed me off.

ANNA: Yeah.

ROY: You know hit it running [unclear] rock. But Ester got hurt to, he got his back injured. Probably because of the back, [unclear] didn't he? Yeah, yeah.

ANNA: Was that in a--

ROY: And he worked a long time after that though as a night watchman. He wasn't able to go in the mines or didn't go in the mines.

ANNA: Well how did he get his back broke?

ROY: Slate fell on him, rock, rock fell on him.

ANNA: Well did it trap him or just?

ROY: Well, back then you never know. They had things they called kettle balls 28:00and a it's just like an old stump. I guess it is petrified and it's just like glass all around it, and you never know where they are, they sound solid and, and after the coals worked from under it hit it and it'll just fall like that. That's how come my buddy Carl Henson get killed one time. We was working one night and he was on the night shift he was working after me shoving dust they call that hallsling then--

ANNA: Hallsmen?

ROY: Hallsing, It's just an old miner's name you know, yeah. And he was shoveling dust, you know, and he's shoveling dust after me we went in that night and we'd been taking three cuts out that was all we could do, there was four of us work together. And went in that night and the machine is parked up on top of, it went over a little slag you know a dip, and the machine head [unclear], and Carl said let's cut the left face first and then said we won't have to cut that bad place but one. The right side was bad so he jumps off and throwed the switch. And he pulled on it to the left side. Got it to cut the glass and the, 29:00the machine the coal part on there where you turn it on the you know the fingers they called it. And I took it off right under when I fell, and filled it off. You had to file that off, its copper you know and make it slick so it would work after. Finished cutting the place and pulled the machine out and stopped in the air [unclear] to fill up my lantern, we used carbide lamps then. And while I was filling up that lamp one of them things fell on Carl and killed him.

ANNA: One of those?

ROY: One of them, what they called kettle balls yeah looked just like an old stump. It was about that thick but it was thinned out it looked like ice or glass or something. And it was right in the middle right where I filed that off all that time and nobody would have known it because you couldn't see it. But it's just slick, whenever enough air got in there it just dropped down. And it 30:00caught it on his head and neck he, he died that night in the hospital.

ANNA: How did you get him out?

ROY: We cut out from under there. I helped get him out.

ANNA: How long did it take to get to the hospital?

ROY: Oh not too long, Pineville you know quick visit. It took a little time you know to get him out and off his head, had, had to carry him down laid him on what they call a man car, they pull people up on. Then they had an ambulance car ready for him. You know, they'd called up, but took him out but he was too bad hurt.

ANNA: I tell you what Roy; let me turn this tape over so we don't miss anything.

TRUMAN: It's running on through. Stop it in.

[sentence starts in the middle]

ROY: I think we got there may be around 12, something like that, and, and Arthur, my brother, said he wanted to go with him down to Wallens, a town; they called it the town of Wallens. We stand down the highway and wanted to call a taxi and go down the road a little piece and there was a bunch of men and a man 31:00lying there beside the road. And the taxi pulled up and stopped and wondered what went on. A fellow by the name of Dan Jones, had a big [unclear] got shot and killed and had him laying beside of the road.

ANNA: That was a good introduction to the mines wasn't it [laughing], did it scare you?

ROY: Well that's what went on in Harlan County, yeah. Him and then three men got killed out there. One by the name of Smith and he had a boy Roy Smith and, and them three and one killed one another, and two another, anyway. Dan was laying there on the road dead, they was waiting on an ambulance to come or a or something.

ANNA: I tell you what, I, how do you make a cut, Roy. I don't exactly know what you know you was talking about the mines making a cut.

ROY: Cutting coal?

ANNA: Yeah.

ROY: Yeah uh. Well they had uh machines they had what's called cutter bar six foot long and it's wide, about that wide you know, I guess three foot wide. And it had teeth in it, you know. And it run around and around like a power saw. And 32:00the coal you just run cut right in there, just start and it went right on in that coal till you got the machine. Than Set your jacks and cut across the face there, cut the face. See there's that big--the ones that had the room they cut them differently. They cut anywhere from 100 feet to twelve, fifteen thing like that. On these long walls you'd cut sometimes 100 feet. Cut that down then you'd go in there and drill a couple or three holes and chewed it down there's just a big pile of coal there.

ANNA: And then, then you'd load it?

ROY: Then I would shovel it, back then we done that with shovels.

ANNA: How big were these rooms, were they really high or?

ROY: Well yeah five and a half and some of them six foot. You'd walk straight in. We'd walk in you know straight.

ANNA: Did they have these cutting machines when you first went to work?

ROY: Yeah.

ANNA: They already had them, were they electric?

ROY: Yeah, electric.

ANNA: Oh.

ROY: I worked there let's see I worked there I guess about five years or something or six, and before I ever went to cutting coal. Once, once you start that you don't get over, yeah no, that, I'll talk about that. You get on that they hold you right on [unclear]

ANNA: Why does it take, is it?

ROY: Well yeah it's dangerous in a way yeah then it takes up more time; you know you're away from home all night most of the time. Mostly they do all that cutting at the night. But right on the last they change you know, when you cut you're driving what they call rush work, they're driving through [unclear] through the mountains another seam of coal, well you know where the mountains dip, you know separate. And they's rushing it through you know, we was working on days then.

ANNA: When ah, when you were digging the coal who bought the carbide for your lanterns?

ROY: We did, we bought our own carbide, we bought our own power to shoot the coal down, you was on your own. They just give you so much a ton for loading. You had to buy the rest. You had to buy your fuse and powder, paper, [unclear], back then they put powder in papers, we called them dummies you know rolled them up on a stick, so long. You'd put a piece of fuse down and fill that thing full of powder in the paper. Put it back in the hole, tamp in dirt or sand or something. They had kept boxes of dirt and sand.

ANNA: Anybody ever get their charge too big, how did--?

ROY: Oh yeah, get them sometimes get them too big and blow trap doors out [laughing] Yeah [unclear] could, they called them windy shots. Boy, it really made wind you to, God it did. You had a...

ANNA: Well how did you figure how much powder to put and how long to make your fuse.

ROY: Well you learn that, you learn that. Older miners you know [unclear] had more experience.

ANNA: And when you wen, when you first went to work in the mines did they usually put you with an older miner to teach you this stuff?

ROY: Well we learned it down here. We'd worked down here before we went to . . .

ANNA: Oh that's right.

ROY: We know what mines were like. Yeah, I was 16 years old and Raymond wasn't much older I guess when he went to work in the mines. He worked some at [unclear] and down at Stearns too. He was about the same--I worked about two or three years before he went to mines, before they'd let him work in one. Back then you know you had they wouldn't work you until you were 18 years old. I signed up for 18 when I was 16. Well he did too. I remember one time when we went to Stearns and the superintendent we'd worked there a year before that, you 36:00know, come back and we'd give the same age and he said you never do get no older do you? [laughing]

ANNA: Never aged a day. You still haven't aged a day, Roy. Tell me about how did you all celebrate Christmas up at Creeches.

ROY: Oh they had, we always had a good Christmas. The company always uh furnished uh people uh pokes you know . . .

Truman: Bags.

ROY: It had apples and candy and everything in it. For the coal company it was a really good company, and they'd always done on maybe Christmas morning, I forget now exactly when it was, they sent a truckload, big truckload and they delivered it to people. Yeah, yeah they'd take your names and they delivered to every member in your family had a poke full of candy and apples and peanuts or just whatever they had. You remember that Truman.

TRUMAN: Yep, I remember it.

ANNA: Did you uh, did, did you get out and cut you Christmas tree or did you?

ROY: We had to get out and cut it, the few that we had you know. Back up then 37:00didn't have no pine or timber or anything growing in Harlan. Sometimes they come through and we'd buy one. Back then I don't think you could buy artificial, I don't think.

ANNA: I don't think so.

ROY: Some probably wouldn't have no tree at all and some would. And sometimes we'd come down in here where they'd grow, cedars and pines and things and we'd cut us a tree here. I mean we couldn't keep a tree up, mean youngins, boys like I had [laughing]. We was afraid to put one up you know.

ANNA: I forgot what I was going to ask you. Say something [possibly Truman]

TRUMAN: Tell about the time you and Daddy went begging down in Corbin during the depression.

ROY: Yeah [laughing]

TRUMAN: [laughing]

ANNA: Was that when you were working that when you were at Creeches, living at Creeches?

ROY: Yeah, we was on a big strike then, the company you know--

ANNA: About what?

Roy: About the Harlan Coal Operators you know they was pretty against striking. Well we, we kind of got out so low on anything to eat you know, so we decided we'd go down around Corbin and Mount Vernon down in there, we'd play a little music and collect something to eat. And we did. We'd go down and play music, had a few little shows you know, and first thing you know we had a truck load of food.

ANNA: took it back to Creeches?

ROY: Yeah, took it back to yeah. Yeah, they, people come in you know and feed us and hear us play.

ANNA: You, you was both married then huh?

ROY: Oh yeah. [unclear]

ANNA: What that would be about 35, 36, during the Depression.

ROY: Let's see I married in 28, had to be about early 30s sometime, early 30s. 39:00Two Burton boys played music they played the guitar; we'd wind up with then. We had a banjo, fiddle, and man on the guitar and buddy we'd go to town and [laughing] people liked it.

TRUMAN: Was that Elij and Carter?

ROY: Yeah Elij and Carter.

ANNA: Did you have a church there at Creeches?

ROY: Yeah they had a church, yeah we, we helped build a church, what's called number one. Miners so many of them paid so much a month you know and built a church. [unclear] still running, still yeah. .

ANNA: Did you go to church?

ROY: Huh?

ANNA: Did you go to church usually?

ROY: We did yeah sometimes, but we, we oughtent to I don't guess [laughing]. We wanted show off plenty of hypocrites [laughing]

ANNA: Yeah I've heard of some of the jokes you all played on the preachers at that church.

ROY: I remember once there was an old man he'd come to the church and he'd pick a banjo, a little old banjo you know. One night Brandon and some of them boys while he was in the pulpit, having a big time shouting and going on. I think Raymond went over and turned every one of his keys down, you know on his banjo. After he got through you know and they called for more songs and he picked his banjo and played it just the same [laughing].

ANNA: He never knew the difference?

ROY: [laughing] didn't make no difference he couldn't play before [laughing]. We used to be mean boys when we were back home. Our older sister we give her a time, she had hers. One time she got in, she taught school down here and she got 41:00in to a feller named Mount Victor. Back then there wasn't no roads and you had to ride a train you know up to what they call Warburn that was about three or four miles above where we lived. Well he'd come down and he'd have to stay all night. Well two of my brothers and one of our neighbor boys, he come I want to say one night, Saturday night and he had to stay all night. Of course my sister fixed him a bead in one room. Back then we didn't have no living room kind of thing every room had a bed in it. They fixed him, She fixed him a nice bed and he went to bed by the time they got in. They found out he was in there so they Roscoe and Val, they, they went in and all three got into bed with him, by the time they come in. Cause they found out he was in there. Two at the foot and one at the head. And Roscoe is about six foot and a half tall, and they'd pull all night on the cover. One would pull it one way and the other another. And they 42:00took it top all night.

ANNA: Who was it that Nory made the snake and you all put it. . .

ROY: That was Raymond done that. Yeah him. He had an old fellow, a widow man that didn't have no family and he just worked around of course he worked for dad. He stayed in Boulder; he went down to where he stayed. This was up in the fall of the year or something like that, and had two beds and a room down there and now that's our dining room. Had two beds in it, Raymond slept in one bed Frank Bryan, old man by the name of Frank Bryan, Frank slept in the other one. So Raymond annoyed decided one time that they would pull a joke on him. Back then they didn't have sheet rock they just had thick wall wallpaper, you know, made up of joist to joist. They made him a big snake, you know and took an old belt some of them had and they stuffed it full of rags or leaves or something. Took and laid it over that paper and Raymond put a string to it and drove a nail 43:00up over his bed, what he could pull it pull it off him, and Raymond said he didn't wear no underwear he just wore overalls and shirts it's all he had. So Raymond said he'd go to bed every night just about dark or sometimes a little before. Raymond said he's go over and sit down on the bed ease his overalls off and get in bed. And Dad and Mother didn't know anything about it. And Dad always, he never would go to bed before eleven or twelve o'clock, and they'd build him a fire in the chimney, had a chimney that burnt wood. [laughing ]So Raymond played off sick that night and beat old Frank to bed, he went to bed before he did, acting like he was sick, Raymond said he'd been in the bed a few minutes and here come Frank, he sat down on the bed and eased his overalls off, pulled the cover up over him. Raymond said he started dragging that old thing out. He said Frank looked up, never moved. Said he pulled it out and hit him 44:00right across the face. He drug it out more. That old man throwed that cover down and come out over the foot of the bed said jumped just as far as he could over where Dad and mother was. [laughing] They called our Dad Melts see, he said God almighty Melts that's the biggest snake I've ever seen in my life. [laughing]

ANNA: Did you all ever do anything like that to, to the people up in the mines?

ROY: Well we didn't have a chance you know we'd just pull little old jokes like we'd put things in their coats and in the dinner buckets and things like that.

ANNA: Did you have water in the house?

ROY: Huh?

ANNA: Did you have running water in your house?

ROY: No we had a well. [unclear] what running water [unclear]

TRUMAN: [unclear]

ROY: Just had a well outside.

ANNA: Did you, did you draw water or did the kids mostly draw it?

ROY: Well there was a little old pump, what they called a pump you know a lever 45:00pump. Kids, they drawled it you know it didn't take long. You know hook a bucket on it that's what there was.

ANNA: Yeah. Then what did you do? I guess you had to heat it up to get that coal dust off didn't you.

ROY: We had to heat it to take a bath, yeah. And uh Lula would always have the water hot. Had a big old kettle thing that she would heat the water in for baths. Only thing we had were baths. Now most the companies had bath houses. I think Creeches did have one and it got burnt down and they never did build another one you know. People just had to take their bath at home.

ANNA: Was, was there uh, okay there was a church and school. . .

ROY: Church, school.

ANNA: And a commissary.

ROY: Yeah.

ANNA: Uh, was there anything else?

ROY: Yeah theater.

ANNA: In Creeches?

ROY: Yeah good thing, they'd show good shows there.

ANNA: Oh really?

ROY: When we first went there before they had talking, you know it was all 46:00silent pictures then. They'd show the pictures and then they'd show the writing, did you ever see one?

ANNA: No.

ROY: Have you been silent cinema?

TRUMAN: [unclear]

ROY: Yeah. They'd first show the picture then they'd show the writing above it is what they done. But then they finally got the they called it, back then they called it talking pictures.

ANNA: And you had one right in, right in camp huh?

ROY: Yeah had we had one, they had everything there. They had supermarkets and [unclear]

ANNA: Oh in Wallins, this is in Wallins.

ROY: Yeah it wasn't in the coal camp they had to go down yonder. They didn't have a theater in the camp.

ANNA: Yeah, about how far was it from, from the camp to Wallins?

ROY: I believe it is about six miles from Wallins to the Creeches camp, something like that.

ANNA: Did you all have a car when you and Raymond went there?

ROY: Not, not for a long time. No

ANNA: Did you go down Wallins much?

ROY: Well they had a taxi. Taxi run every 15 or 20 minutes. Cheapest taxi service, you could go to Wallins for ten or fifteen cents. You know, come back 47:00that way. The taxi driver always made pretty good money because it was always loaded. Made more if they'd charge a big price, but nobody would go. No trouble at all to get a taxi there, you just step out and about three or four minutes one would come by and pick you up, you know.

ANNA: Yeah, this, this wasn't a coal company this was privet company?

ROY: No that's a private taxi, people owned their own cars. And they had a blacktop road up there, the company blacktopped they had road on account of the men going to work. It's a--

ANNA: Can you remember when the blacktop?

ROY: No it was there before, I think they done that, I guess about when Creeches first opened up there. Creeches and Kentucky Utilities Company had a big mine there and then Ford had two big mines up. I think, best I understand it. . . .

ANNA: Ford, is that the Ford Car company?

ROY: Yeah, Henry Ford, yes sir, He had two mines there. They, Fords mine paid 48:00more than the men that worked Ford mines; he paid more than they did at the other mines. Yeah they was a little bit prosperous people and we was . . .

ANNA: Well did they live in a different area . . .

ROY: That was a different camp. Yeah, yeah Ford had two camps, Creeches just had one camp. They had the mines on Harold was head of those big mines, Fords mines was below them and the Kentucky Utility had mine below that with them there. It was a busy place [unclear]. You couldn't find a house to rent or nothing, camp's full. People had to sign up and wait maybe sometimes a year or longer before you'd get a house in the camp. It was a good place to work.

ANNA: Oh, so people really they sort of liked living in the camp then.

ROY: Yeah there's people raised their family there, you know. Yeah, there was little kids born there and growed up and went to work there in there mines the boys did. See the work boys they was raised in the camp, growed up there, born there and growed up and went to work in the mines after they got grown.

ANNA: Did they, did they usually start work in the mines before they finished high school or did they wait until they finished it?

ROY: Most of them did yeah. They had a good high school up at Wallins. Yeah, they was a lot of the boys finished high school there. Some of them went to work like most boys did that don't like school, went to work in the mines. The company was a good [unclear] Harlan boys that growned up there. They wanted something they could get. We left there before I believe our boys got big enough to work in the mines. But they worked, our two oldest boys have worked in the 50:00mines, of course they helped me down here. [unclear] we moved down here. They opened up a mine on over what you call 90 over there, it goes around, and it was big coal, it was five foot coal. I went to work over there after I got well. And both the oldest boys helped me over there. Worked about a year a piece on it.

ANNA: You was talking about Creeches, what's big coal? Is that like a big coal seam?

ROY: Yeah. Some seams, you know coal, maybe 30 inches. Some of its four foot some of its five and six and over here in Pike county and over around Jenkins Kentucky and up in there they got coal that's twelve or thirteen foot, you know. Them mountains is full of coal. There plenty of coal in them mountains yet up there. There was 80 foot below the big seam that we worked in there for so long, there's another seam of coal there, it's about six foot but it's got a parting in the middle, straight in the middle. And that never was worked, it's still 51:00right there. Of course it will be worked far along somebody will open that up. What they got, what they call arch wall machines now. They go through there and cut that dirt out the seam and shoot that coal ball on top but some of it has never been opened, I bet if they [unclear] I've been in . They had too much slate, middle slate they couldn't do nothing with it back then. But now demand for coal it is somebody will at least go up there. If they did well it'd be just like it was when we first went there. Brefore we cut it, only there'd be more of it, more working.

ANNA: Most, most of the mines are worked out aren't they now?

ROY: Well yeah them top mines. That's what it is the top coal that big coal is what worked out. But now it would be a site how they've opened up now. Now damn tipple high up where the coal is they've got about a four foot or a 40 inch seam 52:00there. That's never been worked. You think about that, there's a hundred years of work right there where you work.

ANNA: Coal?

ROY: That's all the mines that opened up. They'd be, well it's probably a non-mechanical work but if it was left up to hand loading like we did when we first went up there, well it would be more than a hundred years of work to get all that out.

ANNA: How long did it take you to load a coal car, by hand?

ROY: Well it, in that big coal it'd take about, most of the cars is three ton cars. You put a little roll blocker out in the middle, they had to keep them from going over that steep mountain [unclear] you'd get three tons it'd take about 15 minutes. I.

ANNA: You'd load three ton of coal in about 15 minutes?

ROY: Yeah I'd load three ton of coal back then, in about 15 minute.

ANNA: Well how would you know which was your coal they when it?

ROY: Well we had we had numbers. We had little brass numbers. Say it'd start 53:00from one and my number was 317 that I run for years there. Do you remember your dad's number? Seems like it was 330 wasn't it?

TRUMAN: Yeah I was just starting to say, seems like it was 330.

ROY: 330. I got a 317 and he got a 330. We'd hang them on the car, they had a nail drove through or things you know, you put your number on the car when it went outside to check weigh man put it down on the sheet [unclear].

TRUMAN: Ask him about people changing.

ANNA: Did anybody ever change tags?

ROY: Yes they had buddy we had coal stealers there yeah but there had a hard way of getting by with it, they get by a while and then they'd catch up to them. Yeah they'd come through them lazy fellows that was too lazy to work and they'd take your check off and put theirs on. But the check weigh man could catch it, he knew what they were up to. He'd come in there. But them kind didn't stay long way.

ANNA: That's what I was going to say what happened to them when they got caught?

ROY: Well they fired them, they had to leave town [laughing] and go somewhere else. That was pretty nice of the company to do that you know. Yeah they just . . . .

ANNA: In other words would watch for them?

ROY: Yeah the company would fire them when they caught them stealing coal. Yeah you'll find crooked stuff in everything you go anymore you know? Yes ma'am

ANNA: Well that's true, what was the thing that you liked best about living up at Creeches?

ROY: Well, ah, just, I really don't know. We were satisfied, we loved people around there. People was nice to us and we was nice to them. And then bad people now [unclear] Blanton's they were bad people was good to us. And I tell you another thing though, because we played music people liked to pick on us you know how that goes. Not that we was above anybody or anything like that but if they had wanted a party or something like that you know they'd come to use they 55:00stayed good friends with us [laughing] If they didn't we wouldn't play for them.

ANNA: I use to play the fiddle.

ROY: [laughing] Yeah.

ANNA: What was, what was, can you remember anything that you didn't like about it?

ROY: Well yeah, I didn't like, there was a lot of drinking and things that went on there. And there was a lot of unnecessary things. The union sometimes would get pretty radical you know about. And another thing they hired gun thugs, they called them to go in there guard, and that all turned out to be bad you know.

ANNA: Well did the union hire the gun people?

ROY: No the union didn't do that, they. . .

ANNA: Owners?

ROY: The company done that now the Creeches company wasn't bad for that either.

ANNA: Yeah. Did many people from outside the mining camps come in to, to organize the union or was it mostly people . . .

ROY: No, they come, they was mostly Harlan countians you know, but they they would, you'd take on a strike or it was called picket lines they'd come from all 56:00the mines after we got them organized. But they had trouble organizing though. They had a big battle at Everett's, Kentucky one time up there and I we I wasn't in to that, and uh I don't know how it come to get out of it right now, but anyway, but the day of the fight [unclear]. But there was several men killed there. There wasn't too many coal miners but they was [Anna -- laughter] but there was, they really worked on the gun thugs out there. They thought they had it planned you know where they tie the local up there that day but the men got a hold of it and whenever they come out of that [unclear] there was men on the mountains, behind rocks and trees and in them buildings with high powered rifles. And went it started it went the other way.

ANNA: The gun thugs got run out?

ROY: Yeah, one of our neighbors got killed, lived right below us, we watched them burry him. Fellow by the name of Ott Lee, him and his dad both went up there went the gun things, they paid big price then, somebody said $15 a day and that was big money then. And they went up there and got a job and he got killed in that battle, Everett's Battle. We watched them burry right above the house where we lived. We watched them carry him up the hill.

ANNA: Was that where the cemetery was?

ROY: Young fellow, yeah he was a young man up in his 20s.

ANNA: Was the cemetery in Creeches or was it down in Wallins?

ROY: No it was in Wallins. Creeches had a cemetery there, had a place they buried there. They had a plot. I think you've got a little brother that's buried there in that.

ANNA: Who's that, Raymond's. . .

ROY: Raymond's first baby.

ANNA: The first one.

ROY: First one, yeah. But I guess that after the mines all worked out I guess 58:00that graveyard's about abandon.

ANNA: Where was it Roy? About where was?

ROY: Well was you ever at Wallins creek?

ANNA: I was at, we went up to Creeches once.

ROY: Now as you go up it was on the left. Do you remember passing the high school, where they had the high school? Well it's on the left on a little point. Little road point there. I've been there shovel graves. I was there when they buried old man Hensley and his boy in one grave, and me and the old lady went to his grave.

ANNA: Why did they bury them in one group?

ROY: Jerry was the boy, the baby then.

ANNA: Why did they bury them bury them in one grave?

ROY: Well they just put the coffins in a grave wide enough for two. And they said they buried the three Blanton's in one grave, we never did went to them. They was buried down below their next to Pineville.

ANNA: What happened to them?

ROY: That was when they was killed in that Election Day.

ANNA: Oh okay those, those. . .

ROY: Yeah that was the ones, that boy we worked with all day killed two of them.

ANNA: Okay.

ROY: Nicest fellows you ever seen, quiet kind of fellows. Yeah you wouldn't have 59:00thought he'd have hurt anything. But he was forced into it whenever he seen his Dad fall, shot him, he just jumped over the bank. Grabbed a gun right out of that man's arm shot him [unclear]. And he fell, when he fell his gun fell out of his hand and one of his boys run to get the gun, Hensley shot him, had to.

TRUMAN: Ask him about carrying guns.

ANNA: Did everybody carry a gun?

ROY: Huh?

ANNA: Did everybody carry a gun?

ROY: Most of them just about everybody did. It paid you too, you didn't know what you was going to run into.

ANNA: Yeah, well back then I guess there wasn't like a sheriff or anything there.

ROY: No they'd just buckle their pistol on when they went to vote that day. Just come as handy you know it as getting your hat or glasses or something. [laughing]

ANNA: Well listen Roy I want to thank you again for letting me . . .

ROY: Well that's alright, yeah.

ANNA: Tape our conversation. I really enjoyed it and I might I might want to 60:00talk to you again if you don't mind.

ROY: Yeah, I'll tell you all I know about up there.

ANNA: I don't know how to cut it off.

TRUMAN: Just let it keep going

ROY: When we first went up there it was a pretty nice place to live. We didn't associate with the bad ones more than we could help it you know. It's like I said we was wondering why people was a little better to us than anybody else and I reckon it was cause the old banjo and fiddle. [laughing] That's the only thing I know.

ANNA: Well yeah if they'd have been mean to you you wouldn't played for them.

ROY: No probably wouldn't. We'd go up there, Mr. Reynolds was the man who owned the company part of it, he was a millionaire, had all kinds of instruments. We'd go there nearly every Sunday morning and play. Play till [unclear].

ANNA: He couldn't play a thing could he?

ROY: Yeah he could to.

ANNA: Mr. Reynolds didn't play any music did he?

ROY: He played the fiddle.

ANNA: Did he?

ROY: Yeah just a fiddle he couldn't play much. [unclear].

ANNA: I always thought he didn't play anything 'cause.

ROY: No he played the fiddle some but whenever you'd force him to. He just [unclear]

ANNA: Were there many miners that played instruments?

ROY: Not too many, the Burton boys and I grew up they learned to play. There wasn't too many musicians.

ANNA: So usually there was about four of you when you played.

ROY: Yeah we organized a band there.

ANNA: Did you play at dances?

ROY: Huh?

ANNA: Did you play for dances?

ROY: They wanted us to, I never did play at many things. We started a family there and heck I wouldn't take a chance on that you know.

ANNA: Wasn't.

ROY: Raymond played for more dances than I had, he'd go and I wouldn't. He used to play for more than I ever did.

ANNA: Did they have dances there at Creeches?

ROY: They had them different places around. Another thing we never would do, we 62:00never did play around them beer joints. I never did go around them, well they had it bad reputation.

ANNA: [unclear]

ROY: And we were talking about this Johnson Hensley killing them two men. One of them about two year one of the Blanton's he got going down to what they call Bell County Club, beer joint down there. And one of the Blanton's went in one day real early sat there at the edge of the door feet. Whenever jumped him Johnson shot him. . .

[tape stops]

[end of interview]