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0:00 - Introduction

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Partial Transcript: the following...

Segment Synopsis: Intro to interview

Keywords:

Subjects:

0:48 - Family History

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Partial Transcript: Grandpa twine...

Segment Synopsis: Background information on family

Keywords: Twine, Richmond

Subjects:

25:04 - Grandmother Marian

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Partial Transcript: What was your grandmothers name?

Segment Synopsis: Information on his grandmother

Keywords: Million

Subjects:

28:34 - Grapevine School

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Partial Transcript: Where were the 18 acres?

Segment Synopsis: History on the purchased acres creating Grapevine school

Keywords: Magee, Grapevine, Madison County

Subjects:

30:56 - Twines Parents

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Partial Transcript: My father went to Grapevine School

Segment Synopsis: Information on Twines parents

Keywords: June Twine,

Subjects:

35:17 - Joe Twine and his Siblings

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Partial Transcript: And your name is Joe.

Segment Synopsis: Where Joe was born, and sibling information

Keywords: Grapevine Ranch, Richmond

Subjects:

36:53 - Educational background

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Partial Transcript: How far in school did you go?

Segment Synopsis: Joe's education at Grapevine

Keywords:

Subjects:

40:55 - Taped interview

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Partial Transcript: At the university of KY

Segment Synopsis: Previously taped interview

Keywords:

Subjects:

44:27 - Trail of the Twines

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Partial Transcript: Trail of the Twines..

Segment Synopsis: History on the Twine family

Keywords: Linda Twine Gloria Twine

Subjects:

54:57 - Daughter, Angela Goggins

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Partial Transcript: We call her our daughter.

Segment Synopsis: Little information on their "daughter"

Keywords: Goggin, Twine

Subjects:

55:20 - Job History

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Partial Transcript: Have you always been the wife of a farmer?

Segment Synopsis: Job history and more information on Angela

Keywords:

Subjects:

58:17 - Interracial relations

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Partial Transcript: Did you ever have any conflict?

Segment Synopsis: Relationships with whites, minimum but good.

Keywords: Hadens

Subjects:

73:48 - Activities/Clubs

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Partial Transcript: Are you still out there?

Segment Synopsis: Stays active with the farm and attends church

Keywords: Mt.Nebo Baptist, Shallow Folk Church

Subjects:

81:28 - Closing

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Partial Transcript: I cant think of anything else i could ask you

Segment Synopsis: Closing to interview

Keywords:

Subjects:

0:00

The following is an unrehearsed taped interview with Mr. Joe Cecil Twine, long-time resident, farmer, landowner in Madison County, Kentucky. His street address is 175 Maple Grove Road. The interview was conducted by A.G. Dunston of the History Department for the Oral History Center at Eastern Kentucky University. The interview was conducted in December 1992.

JT: . . . Yeah, anywhere and anything that you want to know.

AD: Okay. And . . .

JT: Grandpa Twine, that was as far back as I could go because Grandpa Twine, he was born in 1827, and I often wondered who his father was. But, I said, "Well, I'll never know." But, I don't know why, but our foreparents, I don't know what about you, yours, but they didn't pass along things to us. They seemed like history wasn't too important with them.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: I don't know. But, thats the way it was with my family.

AD: Okay.

JT: And theres a lot of things that I couldve known because I had my fathers half-brother, he was a historian. He was illiterate but he kept count. His daughter, she kept dates for him, you know.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: Of funerals of deaths an all that, you know.

AD: Okay.

JT: And events that happened in the community. Shed have them to record those.

AD: Okay.

JT: And anything that you wanted to know, was kind of like, for me, like it was for me now. People come to me, both white and blacks.

AD: Thats right.

JT: They want to know about their ancestors. Well, I . . . Id be willing to know about my own rather than some other ____.

AD: I . . . I think for many of us, we want to know . . . We want to know about your search, because if know how you did it . . .

JT: Yeah.

AD: That . . . That will help us figure out how to do it.

JT: Yeah. Well, could you cut if off just a minute.

(Tape recorder turned off.) (Tape recorder turned on.)

JT: Anyway, I thought that I would never find out about my ancestors, no farther back than my grandfather.

AD: Okay.

JT: Now, Billy, thats my grandfather. He was . . . My great-grandfather. He was of half Indian, and he was purchased by a guy by the name of Charlton Embry.

AD: Embry?

JT: Charlton Embry. Now, Charlton Embry, I could but I have enough to dates to keep up with about my own.

AD: Hmm-Mm.

JT: And Charlton Embry perhaps he was born over two hundred years ago. And because Charlton Embrys great . . . Charlton Embrys nephew, he was born in 1817 and 91. Now this is . . . And hes the guy that owns, um . . . When my people were freed, they were freed Millions.

AD: Freed Millions?

JT: Millions.

AD: Okay.

JT: But getting to the part where we first began about Billy. I think thats the best place for us to start.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: I got in touch with . . . about Billy through some more . . . Another distant cousin of mine. And, she was a Twine and she was, uh, Linda Twine. Linda Twine was a strand of the Oklahome Twines. There was . . . Oklahoma Twines and the Kentucky Twines was all Billys descendants. Now, Billy, as I said, he come here from, uh . . . He was brought here by Charlton Embry. You cant . . . I would like to have the dates but you cant. Have you done much research, you find out that you . . . you . . . Theres a barrier there. There are no records kept. And all this way, that my research started and the most direct and information that I got was from deeds and wills and my . . . the census. I think that the census is the most correct. But, you see, we wasnt included in the census until the 1870 census.

AD: So, the census before that, you sort of weeded through it. How . . . How did you use the census before 1870?

JT: Before . . . All Im saying that you could get was wills. We were owned by the whites and we were . . . At their death, you would be willed to their ancestors.

AD: Alright.

JT: Now, Billy, he lived in Kentucky and died in slavery as an Embry, but he was admonished by the Twine that sold him to Embry to never change his name and he didnt. So, thats one reason why that I think so much of the Twine name.

AD: Okay.

JT: Because we come through two ownerships, if not three, and emerged Twine.

AD: Right.

JT: But Billy was admonished to never change his name when he was purchased in North Carolina and Charlton got a permit. Now, whether this is absolutely true or not. Its not been authenticated. You dont . . . I wouldnt . . .I dont know. But this is the way its been handed down to me and I think it is correct.

AD: Okay.

JT: He got a permit from the state of Virginia to bring Billy to Kentucky.

AD: Okay.

JT: Now, how the mode of transportation is unknown. Whether it was by stagecoach. Id rather think it was by horseback.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: I dont know. I dont know the date. But he, Billy, fathered a son by a full-blooded Indian woman before he was sold to Embry to come to Kentucky. And his name was Thomas John Twine.

AD: Thomas John Twine.

JT: Well, Billy come on to Kentucky and left Thomas John behind. Well, later on in years, long about the . . . Just before slavery ended, Thomas John run away. He was a runaway slave.

AD: Okay.

JT: He come to Cincinnati and married a woman by the name of Irving and she had two sons. And, he . . . And this is puzzling to me why that Billy, he ran away from a slave state, come into . . . Ohio was a free state . . .

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: And then come back to a slave state. But, Im thinking the reason that Billy, he settled at a little place out on 338, I believe it is. It is the Red House Road.

AD: Okay.

JT: That way you familiar with it. Just about 4 or 5 . . . About 5 miles out originally. A little place at that time. That was in the 1820s. It was Red House. It was a station. I dont know whether the railroad had been cut through that at that time. But it was a railroad station. And it now still exists, Red House.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: Well, Thomas John run off and come to Kentucky and settled near Red House, Kentucky, and then, there is where his last son was born. William Henry Twine. Now, William Henry Twine was born in Kentucky and I have two or three statements about that, but I think it was in 1862.

AD: Okay.

JT: When he was born.

AD: Okay.

JT: Now, he was . . . Ive told you before that he was . . . His mother was a full-blooded Indian. Thomas John was a half Indian. So, he was, uh . . . Had a fiery disposition and arrogant. He was kind of like the Indians. He never would yield too much to the white man.

AD: Okay.

JT: So, he come to Kentucky, and Ive been told that he was murdered. I dont know. But, anyway, he left . . . She left and went back to Xenia, Ohio.

AD: Okay.

JT: And theres where William Henry Twine grew up. In Xenia. And Xenia, whether you are familiar with you or not, is just about 12 miles, I think, from Wilberforce.

AD: Alright.

JT: And, so, Thomas John grew up there and was educated at Wilberforce College. He graduated from Wilberforce College.

AD: Okay.

JT: He taught school in Indiana for two years. And for some reason or other, he moved to Mexia, Texas. Now, my father always told me, he said, Weve got a cousin. Ive got a cousin who lives in Mexia. He used to correspond with people.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: _________ in early 1800s. Or maybe the early 1900s. Im getting ahead of myself. But anyway, he . . .After . . . He told me that he was . . . They called it Mexia. Now, how would you pronounce it? M-E-X-I-A.

AD: Mexia?

JT: We would call it, but when my cousin Harry and them, Cousin Harry Twine, now he was the Oklahoma Twines.

AD: Okay.

JT: And I said, Well, my father always told me that we had a cousin in Mexia, Texas. Oh, no, he said, This was Mexia. So, that . . . that . . . But thats the real pronunciation of it. Mexia. M-E-X-I-A.

AD: Mexia?

JT: Mexia. Its about 60 miles, uh, 60 or 65 miles southeast of Dallas. Located in Limestone County. I think Lime . . . . Mexia perhaps is the county seat of Limestone County.

AD: Okay.

JT: Well, getting back to Thomas John . . . After he taught school about two years in Indiana, then he moved to Mexia, and he . . . I guess thats the reason for him going there was this teaching position that he had there.

AD: Okay.

JT: Teaching positions was kind of hard to come by back in those days, you know. I dont know. Can you realize . . . Can you realize just how it was back in those days?

AD: I think . . . I think I can image.

JT: But, I will go on with this and then well talk about that later. Well, he went to Mexia and, lets see, he married. He taught school there and he fell in love with one of his classmates. And they were married. Then, he stayed there I dont know how many years. But, anyway, he got a land grant from the state of Oklahoma at a place called Chandler. Chandler, Oklahoma. Its about midway between Oklahoma City and Muskogee. I think it was 100. It was over 100 acres . . .

AD: Okay.

JT: That this land grant called for. And they were going out there and Ive been . . . Ive got a lot of literature here about it. It was the Fox Run Territory and it was in the Indian territory and they were running this off. It was just like the gold rush, and people were going in, you know, to stake off their claims, you know.

AD: Hmm-Mmm. Hmm-Mmm.

JT: And William Twine, he went and staked off his claim and he got the court, the deed to it.

AD: Okay.

JT: So, but, you know, thats what they were supposed to do in order to compete for his land grant. You must move there and live on the land.

AD: Yes.

JT: So, he went there and he built a house. I dont know whether it was log or not.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: And moved his family there from Mexia by covered wagon. And then, uh, long about 1893, I believe it was, I wont say correct, but along in that, a tornado destroyed the home. Then, he moved into Muskogee and he was . . . There was where he spent his last days. Now, he was . . . William Henry Twine, he was an attorney. He took the . . . Ive got to solve what he ______ from law school in Oklahoma City. He took it there and he passed the bar. Then, in . . . He practiced law. Then, he was kind of a Martin Luther King person. He wasnt all . . . He was no religious man, but he did it through the law.

AD: Okay.

JT: He decided to take care of people that was without money. He defended people with, um, that was falsely accused. He was kind of a civil rights leader. So, he did all that and all. Then, after . . . But, he had . . . My daddy always said that he had seven sons, but he had seven children.

AD: Okay.

JT: But it was six sons and a daughter. And the daughter died in infancy. But, the sons grew up to be grown. And, lets see, one . . . Three of them turned out to be attorneys. And Harry Twine and Pleeney Twine. Pleeney is the last one. Ralph Pleeney. He still lives in Muskogee. Pleeney will be 93 years old the 24th day of August. He was born in 1900. But, my father always told me that William Henry married an Indian woman.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: But I dont think thats correct. And I think when you see the picture, you will think so too. Now, I think she is more Caucasian. Now, thats . . . Thats his wife.

AD: Right here?

JT: Thats his wife. And . . . Shes more Caucasian . . .

AD: Hmm-Mmm. Hmm-Mmm.

JT: Than she is Indian. Now, there . . . She is ten years his junior if Im not mistaken. She . . . He was . . . William Henry was born in 1862 and I believe she was born in 1871 or 72. And she was his student, I mean, in school, and they married and had these . . . Those six children and theres seven. There was six sons.

AD: Okay. Her name was Mittie?

JT: Yeah. Mittie Richardson. And, uh, theres . . . Theres the sons, all of them.

AD: Oh.

JT: Theyre a real nice looking group of people. And my . . . But, anyway, William Henry died in 1935. Then, his wife died, if Im not mistaken, in 1937. So, they all died out fairly early in life.

AD: Hmm-Mmm. These were the six sons?

JT: This was six sons.

AD: Help me here. Pleeney?

JT: Pleeney.

AD: Harry?

JT: Harry.

AD: Chauncy?

JT: Chauncy.

AD: Edgar?

JT: Yeah.

AD: And I cant . . .

JT: Willie. William.

AD: William. And . . .

JT: And thats, uh . . .

AD: In the corner.

JT: Thats Edward.

AD: Edward?

JT: Edward.

AD: Okay.

JT: Yeah. So, uh, anyway, thats the line of the Twines.

AD: Okay.

JT: And Grandpa Twine, he was . . . Thomas Twine, that was my grandfather.

AD: Okay.

JT: That was Billys son that was born in Kentucky.

AD: Okay.

JT: And he was William . . . After he moved to Kentucky, he married one of the Embrys servants, and her name was Lucy, and they had one son. That was my grandfather, Thomas Twine. And then, after . . . My grandfather grew up and then, when he married, he married a servant in the Joel Embrys home. And Embry, Charlton Embry, and Joel Embry were brothers.

AD: Okay.

JT: So, it wasnt too hard for them to make that transition. Because they were brothers. So, he married in Joel Embrys home, so they just switched over and he moved into the Joel Embry home. Well, then, Joel at his death, as I told you before, they were passed on down as property. So, Joel Embrys grandson, he inherited his mothers part and that included my grandfather. So, that brought him into the Million household.

AD: Oh.

JT: M-I-double L-I-O-N. Berle Million. Berle was born in 1891 and died in 1873. June or July of 1873.

AD: Nineteen seventy-three?

JT: Yes. Nineteen!

AD: Nineteen seventy-three. Okay.

JT: Yeah. Nineteen seventy-three.

AD: Okay. Okay.

JT: So, he was . . . My grandfather was freed from the Million home and then, he purchased some land from the Millions after he was free. It was 18 acres more or less. He purchased his land on March 13, 1873 for 540 dollars, cash in hand. Ive often wondered just how he come about saving up 540 dollars. He had been freed perhaps for something like 7 or 8 years.

AD: Okay.

JT: I want to ask you one question.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: When was the emancipation proclamation? When did it go into effect?

AD: It was supposed to become effective the 1st of January 1863.

JT: Well, it was by Kentucky. Ive . . . Ive heard that, but Kentucky, I dont think it went into effect at that time. It was a border state.

AD: Right. Right.

JT: And it didnt go into effect until it was supposed to have went into effect. But, Kentucky was a . . . It was a neutral state.

AD: Uh-huh.

JT: And it didnt go into effect until 1866, maybe, or 65.

AD: After the Civil War, I think, was when Kentucky even honored the idea about slavery.

JT: Yeah. Its kinda confusing.

AD: Right. It is.

JT: Yeah. But, it was a . . . I was on the board up to the Farmers Home Administration and the guy said to me and we were talking about it. And, I said it was in 1865 and he said 1863. So, I looked it up and I found out that Kentucky was a neutral state.

AD: Thats right.

JT: But, Kentucky didnt . . . They did recog- . . . It wasnt recognized in Kentucky.

AD: It was not. It was not recognized in any of the border states.

JT: Yeah. Thats right. Thats right. Yeah.

AD: Okay.

JT: You got that straight.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: So, anyway after he was born . . . After he was freed, he bought this land from his slave owner and it was so strange to me, and my grandmother always . . . I know more about slavery, I guess than most people my age. And people say, Well, Jesus Christ, you must as old as Santa Claus. You know, but its not that.

AD: Okay.

JT: I knew . . . I knew more about it even . . . I had four brothers. I mean, two brothers and a sister. I had two sisters but one of my sisters died in infancy. But, I knew . . . My mother died, it was in the article that I wrote, in 19 and 3 and I went to live with my grandmother.

AD: Right. JT: And thats all she knew to talk about. Abe . . . Abe Lincoln was her savior.

AD: Okay. Yes.

JT: Abe Lincoln, she thought the world, and I quite image she would.

AD: Hmm-Mmm. Hmm-Mmm.

JT: And she taught me . . . Told me so many things about it, and I couldve learned more, you know, but I wasnt too much into it. It seemed like it was ancient history.

AD: Yeah.

JT: The things that she had . . . It had been over. Now, this was in the 1865 and when I then went to live with her, thats 35 and 35 and 9 . Forty-four years.

AD: Okay.

JT: It hadnt been long.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: But, it seemed like to me that it had been an eternity.

AD: Okay.

JT: But she taught me those things and I never . . . I never did forget them.

AD: Okay. What was . . . What was your grandmothers name again?

JT: Mary.

AD: May? Uh-huh.

JT: Mary. Mary Ann.

AD: Mary Ann?

JT: Yeah.

AD: Okay. Uh, before she became a Twine . . .

JT: Yeah.

AD: What was her surname?

JT: She was a Million. She was owned by the Millions.

AD: And she took that name?

JT: Yeah.

AD: Okay.

JT: If you . . . If you were a daughter, you were thought of as a Million, you know, your . . . your slave people.

AD: Right. Okay.

JT: Thats right. And, Berle Million, now he was the one. . . He started the . . . The census . . . The 18 and 20s census said that Berle had two slaves, 18 and 20, and no doubt, one of them, was my great-grandmother, Phoebe. And my grandmother told me that Phoebe rode horseback from Appomattox Courthouse near . . . Thats where she was purchased . . . .

AD: Okay.

JT: Near the Appomattox Courthouse, and shed always relate to me that thats where Lee surrendered to Grant. She didnt want me to forget that, you know.

AD: Uh-huh.

JT: And, so theres where she was purchased.

AD: Okay.

JT: But, it was just another horseback ride, I thought, and I never realized until in 1980 . . . 1989, I reckon, we went to . . . Our reunion was in Washington, D.C.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: And its coming up this year, and it will be in Chicago. But, we were in D.C., Washington, D.C., so, we were going to about 7-1/2 hours out, 65 and 70 miles an hour. We were off to Appomattox.

AD: Okay.

JT: And then, I began to realize what a horseback ride that mustve been.

AD: Oh, yes.

JT: And, so, AAA . . . I asked them when I wanted the AAA routed this, and I said I want you to tell me how far . . . Whats the distance from Lexington to Appomattox, Virginia? She said 440 miles. Well, that wouldve been after he got to Lexington, but I dont know what direction they would come. Richmond is about 22 or 23 miles short of 11, I mean 2111 Tates Creek Road.

AD: Right.

JT: That is where the address was. The house still stands where my grandfather . . . where my . . . where my parents was . . . where my grandparents were their slave.

AD: The house still stands?

JT: The house still stands. Its down on Tates Creek Road. It would have been just about two miles further on down on the right hand . . . On the left hand side.

AD: Okay.

JT: The old house is still there.

AD: Okay. Does it have the sign up?

JT: No, no. No. No sign. No sign. Though, their graveyard was down there. Berle is buried there and his wife is buried there and a lot of the relatives.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: But, I know them by my grandmother. She told me all about them, you know.

AD: Where were the 18 acres? You said, 18 acres.

JT: Eighteen acres. Eighteen acres was on the Magee Branch. This gate right here. You follow that road. Now, thats a county road.

AD: Okay.

JT: And it comes out further on down from where you turn down here at Million.

AD: Okay.

JT: And it was known as the Magee Branch, but now it is known as the Grapevine Branch.

AD: Okay.

JT: And my . . . He . . . He bought this land and he . . . I remember . . . I still own. My sister and I . . . She got a third of it. And when we were run it off the last time, it was 21 acres. So, I got 14 acres of it, and my . . . So, I didnt buy it back in because it was kind of rugged and is hilly land.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: I had all the hilly land I needed.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: So, I didnt try to buy it back in. Well, anyway, he built a house on it. Then, he donated half an acre to Madison County to build a school and it was . . .

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 1. BEGINNING OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2.

JT: The late 1870s. Id say about 78 or 9. I would think.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: Im not too positive.

AD: Okay.

JT: But, anyway, it existed and stayed on the same property and the county accepted it as a donation until 1918. It was just a one room school boxy building

AD: Okay.

JT: I dont know that the masons . . . It wasnt very large, and homemade seats. There was no desk. Just homemade. Just homemade benches . . .

AD: Hmm-Mmm. Okay.

JT: To sit on. And a big . . . one big blackboard, uh, I guess it was 12 feet long. It looked like . . . It was solid out of a huge tree and painted black.

AD: Okay.

JT: And thats what we had for a blackboard.

AD: So, you . . . You went to Grapevine School?

JT: Oh, yeah.

AD: Your father?

JT: My father was at Grapevine School.

AD: Okay. Alright.

JT: And my mother, I guess. I dont know.

AD: Hmm-Mmm. What is your fathers name?

JT: He was June. Just J-U-N-E. June Twine. I dont know, he was born . . . It wasnt . . . He wasnt . . . It wasnt like Junior or, you know . . .

AD: Right. Hmm-Mmm.

JT: But it was just June. He was born in June and I guess they just named him June. I dont know.

AD: Do you know his birth date?

JT: Do I know it?

AD: Uh-huh.

JT: Yeah.

AD: What is it? What was it?

JT: He was born July the 20- . . . June the 14th, 1872.

AD: My, my. Alright.

JT: And he died June, the 24th, 1938. He died a young man.

AD: Right. Okay. And, um, your mom, what was your mothers name?

JT: My mothers name was a Goggins. G-O-G-G-I-N-S.

AD: Okay.

JT: Yeah. They grew up in the hills in Madison County. There was all . . . But it was kinda strange and we cant find out exactly about . . . We cant go back no farther than Rose Goggins. We cant go back to a male in the Goggins descendence.

AD: Okay.

JT: Rose Goggins . . . . As far as we can go back is Rose Goggins in the census.

AD: Okay.

JT: In the 1820 and the 1870 census, Rose Goggins was living in the household of Polly Lane. I . . . I dont know exactly whether the Goggins was ever slaves.

AD: Okay.

JT: Or whether they were just . . . We didnt have anywhere to go. We wasnt citizens.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: And we wasnt allowed to own land and we had to live somewhere.

AD: Right.

JT: So, Rose was living in the Polly Lane household.

AD: Okay.

JT: Rose was born in 1820. Rose had a son, my grandfather. He was born in 1844.

AD: Alright.

JT: Then, she had a sister . . . He had . . . Rose had two children that we could find out about and her name was Frances. And Frances was born in 1852. She was without occupation. And, Rose was keeping house and then my grandfather had married at that time, and he married a lady by the name of . . . She was Harriet Newby.

AD: Okay.

JT: And . . . (telephone rings) Excuse me. Switch that off.

AD: Alright.

JT: Maybe shes down here.

(Tape recorder turned off.) (Tape recorder turned on.)

JT: Cordless phone in there, but I dont know if somethings wrong with it. I dont think its operating just exactly.

AD: Sometimes it loses touch or something.

JT: Yeah.

AD: Uh-huh.

JT: Yeah.

AD: Like somethings going wrong with it.

JT: But, anyway, it kind of broke my concentration.

AD: Um, let me see, we were talking about the Goggins part of the family.

JT: Yeah.

AD: That . . . Theres a Goggins Road. Is that . . . ?

JT: Yeah. Well, theres no connection.

AD: Okay.

JT: Weve often wondered.

AD: Uh-huh.

JT: And I wrote in the book that the only Goggins connection is the Goggins Lane. It is a three mile stretch of road that runs from the Jacks Creek Road over to the Barnes Mill Road.

AD: And thats it?

JT: Thats it.

AD: Okay.

JT: I think theres some Goggins that once and, of course, theyre bound to have been white but they were . . . dealt in tobacco and they shipped tobacco from . . . to New Orleans. But, theres . . . . theres no more . . . Theres no Goggins other than this city in Madison County that I know of.

AD: Okay. And your name is Joe.

JT: Joe.

AD: Is there is a middle name or just Joe?

JT: Joe Cecil.

AD: Joe Cecil Twine.

JT: Joe Cecil. C-E-C-I-L.

AD: Alright.

JT: Joe Cecil Twine.

AD: Okay. When were you born?

JT: When was I born? When do you think I was born? (Laughter) Im going to put you on the spot.

AD: Uh, lets see, if you moved in with your grandmother in 1909 . . .

JT: Yes, Ive done told you that.

AD: Uh-huh. Uh, lets see, I figured you about 80.

JT: Yeah. Eighty-seven.

AD: Eighty-seven.

JT: Eighty-seven.

AD: Okay. Youre 87 years old.

JT: Eighty-seven.

AD: Okay. Alright. And where were you born?

JT: I was born on Grapevine Branch.

AD: Okay.

JT: I was born on this same land that my grandfather bought.

AD: Right. What . . . What . . .uh, uh, you went to school there?

JT: Yeah.

AD: Are you an only child?

JT: No. I had five . . . I had three brothers . . . Two brothers and two sisters. There was five of us.

AD: What were their names?

JT: My oldest brother was named James.

AD: Alright.

JT: My next . . . The next one was named Mollie and then, I was . . . Then, and then Cleo. I had another brother named Cleo.

AD: Okay.

JT: And then Joe and then Fannie. Fannie died in infancy.

AD: Okay.

JT: She was born in 1908 and died in 1909.

AD: Alright. Okay.

JT: She was just a kid. Okay?

AD: So, how far in school did you go at Grapevine School?

JT: Eighth grade.

AD: Eighth. Okay. Was there a graduation ceremony from the school?

JT: Yeah. Yeah. The other ______ were little. We called them exhibitions or something. I dont know, but anyway . . .

AD: Okay.

JT: Its kind of hard to go back to that.

AD: Uh-huh.

JT: But, __________. And people think youre strange and um . . . Now, Hayes, ______.

AD: ___ the archives.

JT: Yeah, the archives. He thought it was so strange that where did I go to college. I told him I did not attend college. Did I attend Eastern University? I said, Man, what do you mean? People forget so soon. He seemed to think that I well, I should have just attended. Well, a broom and a mop was all they wanted with me.

AD: Right. Right.

JT: People dont realize.

AD: They forget.

JT: And thats one reason why I didnt go . . . Didnt seek out, well, there was no high school. We were seven miles out and . . . How am I going to get back and forth to Richmond?

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: You know, to high school.

AD: Right.

JT: Yeah.

AD: Okay.

JT: And, well, if . . . if . . . if I got out of school, if Im out of college, what was there for me to do?

AD: You could farm or teach or preach.

JT: Teach. Teach. You know what they were paying for teaching?

AD: I can image, but you tell me.

JT: Thirty. Twenty-five to 30 dollars a month for six months. Now, what . . .What . . . What are you going to get out of that?

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: And, uh, Linda, she interviewed me and theres a conversation, and she said ______ asked me why didnt I go to school. Well, I said, there was no point hardly that if, uh, if you went a schoolteacher was about all you could do and thats the conversation with Linda.

AD: Oh, okay.

JT: That was in Oklahoma, wasnt it?

Another Voice: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: And the Muskogee. And we got conversation pieces of all of them. And, Im . . . Im . . . Im just so proud. You know, I used to think, Well, people will look down on you as being a farmer. . . .

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: And Im just so proud of being a farmer as I . . . As I probably would a doctor, a lawyer. What Ive done, Ive done it well. I put my life into it and Im proud of it.

AD: Okay.

JT: People, not me, but I was just thinking, but its not in there . . .

AD: Okay.

JT: But, anyway, Im proud of my profession. Farming has been good to me.

AD: Uh, this is like conversation with the Oklahoma Twines Centennial Celebration?

JT: Yeah. Thats one . . . One hundred years of the Okla- Twines in Oklahoma.

AD: Yeah.

JT: Yeah. They were celebrating their centennial . . . celebrating their centennial in Oklahoma and Muskogee.

AD: What were you looking for?

JT: I was looking for that . . . that honor roll that we were on. I was in there. It was all of them and there were doctors and lawyers.

HT: Is that still on?

JT: Huh?

HT: Is that still on?

JT: No. You cut that off, didnt you? Did you cut the . . . ?

AD: Oh, okay.

(Tape recorder turned off.) (Tape recorder turned on.)

JT: Eastern Kentucky University.

AD: Right.

JT: It was in the archives of University of Kentucky and, uh, the taped, a lady, a white lady. She come in and taped three tapes, didnt she?

HT: Uh-huh.

JT: And they are in the library at The University of Kentucky.

AD: At The University of Kentucky?

JT: Yeah.

AD: Okay.

HT: No, it was in Lexington.

JT: Huh?

HT: Lexington.

JT: University.

HT: Whats the name . . . ?

AD: University of Kentucky in Lexington?

HT: In Lexington, yes.

AD: Uh, thats the University of Kentucky.

JT: University.

HT: Yeah. University of Kentucky. I was asking if Eastern . . . I was thinking you were saying it was in Eastern.

JT: It is.

HT: Okay. Okay.

AD: The book is.

JT: The book is.

HT: . . . And the University . . .

JT: But the . . . The conversation, the tapes is in the library at University.

HT: Yeah. Right. Uh-huh.

AD: Uh, this . . . This conversation was taped?

JT: No, that was not taped.

AD: This was not taped?

JT: No, that wasnt taped.

AD: So, there is no record of this?

JT: No record. No record.

AD: Are things in this conversation the things in your book or things on the tape?

JT: Well, no. I dont think so.

HT: Well, part of it. Some of it is.

JT: Yeah. Other than this tape that was in the archives, I mean, in the library.

AD: Okay.

JT: Thats just kind of mine and the way it was lived. The way I live my life from Grapevine Branch on up until now.

AD: Okay. I want a record of this. (Laughter) Okay. And Im trying to figure out how to do it. Is this your only copy?

JT: No, I dont think so.

HT: No. Uh-uh. You have another one.

JT: Uh, let me see. We dont keep things very well organized.

AD: Thats alright. I like the way this one starts off. I am a Million. I am a Goggins. I am a Twine.

HT: Uh-huh. He is a wonderful . . . He has been a wonderful husband, and such a wonderful mind.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

AV: It just keeps you. It keeps you . . . I can register things right now, but, you know, a day or two, its gone.

AD: Its gone. How long have you been married to Mr. Twine?

HT: We celebrated our 65th anniversary the 26th day of January.

AD: Shooo.

HT: Thats right. Thats right.

AD: Oh, my. Okay. Im having a conversation with Hattie Duncan Twine.

JT: Yeah. Well, Itll be . . .

AD: How many?

HT: Sixty-fifth.

JT: No. No.

HT: Huh?

JT: Nuh-uh.

HT: Yes, it was. Wasnt it?

JT: No. Not 65th. We were married in uh . . . 33. It was just 60.

HT: Just a 60. Oh, I was having . . . Okay. Sixty.

AD: Sixty.

JT: It was 60.

AD: Alright.

JT: Now, this is a . . . I dont know if you ever have . . . This is what was in the archives.

AD: Okay. See, Ive never seen anyones . . .

JT: Yeah. Thats when I started out to write in 1987.

AD: The Trail of the Twines, with an I through the Twines with a Y.

JT: Yeah. Well, some of them started with a Y. So, we didnt want to leave no one out.

AD: Okay.

JT: Yeah.

AD: Through Madison County, Kentucky, 1820 to 1988.

JT: Yeah. Uh-huh.

AD: Oh, my goodness. Alright.

JT: We had to look . . . What we were doing, we were trying to get some finances to buy the niece, our niece. We raised it. She grew up here, and she was a hostess in Richmond in the Holiday Inn.

AD: Okay.

JT: And so that was one way of raising some money. So, I sold those books for $6. I think it turned $500 or some odd dollars. It did pretty well.

AD: Are . . . Is this for sale?

JT: Huh? (Laughter)

HT: Is this one for sale?

AD: Is this for sale?

JT: No.

AD: Oh, okay. (Laughter).

HT: Well, you have some more, dont you?

JT: I have . . . given to _________ those kids.

HT: Well, okay.

AD: Okay. Okay.

JT: Well, you can have that one.

AD: The Conversation?

JT: Yeah.

AD: Okay. Okay. Oh, this was when you did the interview with the Herald Leader.

JT: Yeah. Yeah. Thats the one that they take and then they sent it back to me.

AD: Oh, okay. Okay. But I can have this Conversation?

JT: Yeah, you can have it.

AD: Okay.

JT: Yeah. Maybe, this in here.

AD: Thats a wonderful way to do that. Its a wonderful way to do that.

HT: Uh, you did see this one, didnt you?

AD: Yes, maam, I did. Uh-huh. Ive got it with me.

HT: Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. I see.

JT: Now, that . . . This is the woman. Shes been very helpful. Shes the one that kind of helped me along with that and inspired me. Linda Twine. She is a graduate from the school of music in Oklahoma City.

AD: Okay.

JT: And she made quite a name for herself. She was a music director or conductor for Lena Horn for five years until Lena retired.

AD: Okay.

JT: So, now she is with a play on Broadway and New York City that has been running since, well about a year, hadnt it?

HT: Yeah.

JT: Jeddies Last Jam.

AD: Oh, okay.

JT: Have you ever heard of it?

AD: I havent, but I can image.

JT: Jeddies Last Jam.

AD: Are you talking about Jederow Thornton?

JT: Well, I dont know. But, Ive seen the guy. He was in Ebony at one time. The guy that was in charge of it.

AD: Okay.

JT: And they must be rather well financially because they were on one of the . . . I dont know whether it was Wheel of Fortune. You know, the sponsors when it goes up.

AD: Hmm-Mmm. Credits.

JT: Yeah. Jeddies Last Jam.

AD: Okay.

JT: We are supposed to, but I dont know whether we will get there or not. They wanted us to go and, um, to New York to see the Broadway . . . The show . . .

AD: Okay.

JT: While this is on. Now, this is another one. She is very highly educated, too.

AD: Gloria Twine.

JT: Yeah, thats Gloria Twine Chisel.

AD: Okay.

JT: Yeah. Shes on page 30. Shes very well educated and got all of these degrees.

AD: Okay.

JT: We had visited them. She lives in Philadelphia.

AD: Okay. Thats where my father lives.

JT: Hmm-Mmm.

AD: In Philadelphia.

JT: Your father?

AD: Yes.

JT: Yeah.

AD: Uh-huh. He lives in Philadelphia.

JT: Yeah.

AD: Okay.

JT: Now, you are from where?

AD: Well, I was born . . . I was born . . . I was born in New Jersey and raised in North Carolina. Both parents are North Carolinian.

JT: Yeah.

AD: But, he moved to Philadelphia years ago.

JT: Yeah.

AD: Okay? And Momma has moved to New Orleans, Louisiana.

JT: Oh, yeah.

AD: So, like . . .

JT: Were they . . . Did the dad go away?

AD: ________. They were . . . They were divorced I think when I was two.

JT: Well. Well.

AD: Yeah.

JT: Do you . . . Do you have a family?

AD: Im married. I dont have any children.

JT: Oh, yes. But you make your home in Lexington?

AD: Yeah. And teach at EKU.

JT: Yeah. Well, now, theres another girl, but shes just new there, but I dont know her last name. One named Joyce.

AD: Burris?

JT: Huh?

AD: In . . . In music?

HT: No. I dont . . . I dont think so. I dont know what she majored in.

JT: She moved here from Michigan this year. This is the . . . She moved in and she started in January.

AD: Okay. I dont know her.

HT: I dont know her last name.

JT: I dont either.

AD: When you were growing up, uh, did you always know you were going to be a farmer?

JT: Well, now, not exactly. You see, its hard to visualize just . . . We grew up . . . You grow up and you think you was kind of in a little world for yourself. You dont . . . We didnt take a newpaper. Well, my father, my mother, and my stepmother, she taught school and all, but we . . . My early years, of course, when I was growing up with Grandma Mary . . .

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: That was before television.

AD: Right.

JT: And was before radio. And I dont know how . . . We depended on someone else. There was a guy by the name of Solomon Taylor and he was perhaps, maybe, I image, he was an 8th grade student. I dont know. But, he taught school. He used to teach school back then, you know.

AD: If you finished 8th grade, you could teach school.

JT: Yeah. And everyone looked up to him as being an educated person.

AD: Okay.

JT: And we would rely on Solomon for our information and news. I remember the first time in World War I, I heard the word Czechoslovakia and I thought what a name.

AD: Okay.

JT: I couldnt figure it . . . I couldnt figure it out. I hadnt study geography that well enough to know.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: Its just like the . . . Its hard to explain just how things work back then, but I didnt . . . I never did exactly want to be a farmer, but I tell you the reason why I am a farmer today, I guess. Well, I grew up on the farm.

AD: Okay.

JT: But, in one sense of the word, we were kind of share croppers. My daddy, we had . . . We had a little place. After my grandfather died, we kept our little place of 18 acres. My father, he was . . . He had come to the Haden place right across the road and they had right about 300 acres of land and he was going to be an overseer and he was. He was an overseer. And, he was . . . Well, my brother, Jim, he was living there on the farm. Cleo, he was living there, and myself and my father. But, we didnt have to . . . I never punched a time clock in my life.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: I never did do nothing but farm, and I thought my father would take orders from the Hadens and they just tell him what to do.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: And my father, he would tell us, Now boys, we do this and we do that. So, I took orders from my father.

AD: Okay. Okay.

JT: And you begin to think perhaps that until you get out in the world that maybe you dont take orders from no one and youre doing alright.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: But, when you get out in the world, you know, the competition is terrible.

AD: Were you ever in the service?

JT: No. We had ____ daughter that we raised.

AD: Okay.

JT: Yeah.

AD: Alright. Where did you two meet? How did you two meet?

JT: Well . . .

HT: Weve known each other all of our lives.

AD: Okay.

JT: Yeah.

HT: All of our lives. So, I guess . . . I guess, people you knew . . .

AD: Were you at the Grapevine?

HT: Well, we are first cousins.

JT: Yeah. Did you get that?

AD: No, I missed that.

JT: You missed that. (Laughter)

HT: So, we had lived . . . lived just across the hill from each other.

AD: Oh, okay.

HT: So, weve known each other all of our lives.

AD: Okay. So, you met just being in the area?

JT: Yeah. Just being in the area.

AD: Okay.

JT: Thats right. Yeah.

AD: And your children . . . You have one daughter?

JT: Yeah. What we call our daughter.

AD: Okay.

JT: Really, its her brothers daughter.

AD: Okay.

JT: And we reared her.

HT: Her mother died when she was . . . Oh, when ___ was about three.

JT: She was born the same year we were married and she died when she was five years old.

AD: Okay.

HT: And we took her in and reared her.

AD: Whats her name?

JT: Angela. Excuse me.

HT: Angela.

AD: Angela?

HT: Angela.

AD: Does she carry the last name Twine?

HT: No, shes a Goggins.

AD: Shes a Goggins?

HT: Uh-huh.

AD: Okay.

JT: ____ give her up for adoption.

HT: We . . .We . . . We wanted to adopt her but her daddy wouldnt . . . You know, he didnt want to give her up.

AD: Oh. Okay. Even though you all raised her?

HT: Huh?

AD: Even though you all raised her, he wouldnt give her up?

HT: Yeah. Uh-huh.Thats right.

AD: Okay. Alright. Lets see, have you . . . Have you always been the wife of a farmer? Did you have any other jobs outside the household in all these years?

HT: I worked for the Hadens for ten years.

AD: Okay.

HT: They lived in Richmond. I was . . .

JT: Thats Angela.

AD: Oh. Is she uh . . . ?

HT: Albino.

AD: Yeah. Alb-, thats the word.

JT: Yeah.

AD: She is albino?

HT: Uh-huh.

AD: Well, she doesnt have to have all the dark glasses or anything. I thought they always had to wear the dark glasses.

JT: Well, she . . .

HT: No. No. No. No.

AD: And her eyes . . . Her eyesight and everything is right?

JT: Yeah. But, she has had to wear kind of thick-rimmed glasses.

AD: Okay.

JT: Special glasses.

AD: Okay.

JT: Yeah.

AD: Where have I seen her? Is she . . . Is she in Richmond?

HT: No, shes in Winchester.

JT: Winchester.

HT: Have you seen her?

AD: What does she do for a living?

JT: Well, she works for a private family and then she sews. She is a good seamstress.

AD: Ive seen her.

JT: Youve seen her.

AD: Yeah. But, I dont know where.

JT: Well, shes a person that stands out and you dont forget her soon.

AD: Okay.

JT: She walks slightly with a limp.

AD: It seems to be . . . She couldve been in Lexington.

JT: Oh, yeah.

HT: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

JT: Oh, yeah.

AD: Alright. So, this is the one you call your daughter?

JT: Thats right. Thats right.

AD: What other goodies did you bring down?

JT: And this _____ news spread around and a guy called me from Tampa, Florida.

AD: Oh. And he . . . He put this on the ______.

JT: Yes. Its the sign of _____. I asked him about it. I called him and its all wood and what care do you . . . How do you care for it, and he said just wipe it off with a damp cloth.

AD: Thats all?

JT: Thats what he said.

AD: Okay. This is from the Lexington Herald Leader.

JT: Yeah.

AD: Oh, alright. Im still trying to buy that book from you, though.

JT: Im going to . . . (Laughter).

HT: ____________. (Laughter).

AD: Huh? I still want that book. Anything else you can talk to me about? About growing up in Madison County? Did you ever have any . . . any conflict with the whites?

JT: Conflict?

AD: Yeah. You know, I mean . . .

JT: No. Nothing like . . . We all get along very well.

AD: Okay.

JT: As I said I didnt come in contact with them too much.

AD: Okay.

JT: The only people that we come in contact with was the Hadens and they were kindly the stood out. They were kind of the upper crust among the whites. They were kindly . . . Everyone, you know, the people in the community, they just look up to, you know.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: And they were . . . The Hadens were one.

AD: Okay.

JT: Her name was Mary, too, the lady of the house, and Mary Haden was the best cook, the best housekeeper and everyone just looked up to her.

AD: Okay.

JT: And I had a great-aunt. My Aunt Marge, my grandmother Marys sister, and she would always tell you . . . She said my daughter is just like Mary Hadens daughters, you know. And everyone looked up to them.

AD: Okay.

JT: And thats the ____.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: But, we didnt have any other than just calling . . . The only problem that we had was young people was, uh, they would call you nigger, you know.

AD: Okay.

JT: Did you have to go through that?

AD: Yeah, we did. Yeah, I did. When I . . . Because I came up in segregation. I went to segregated schools.

JT: Yeah.

AD: So, they stood on one side of the street and wed stand on the other. (Laughter) And theyd us a dirty name and wed call them one back.

JT: Did you ever get down to throwing rocks?

AD: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Throwing rocks, and the old saying was I might be poor, but you cant tell it. The white kids said when youre poor, it shows all over your face. Thats what we used to always . . . Oh yeah, and we stood there.

JT: We never . . .We never did that. We never did come into too much confli-. In fact, in the business, it never did come in too much . . . deal with them too much.

AD: Okay.

JT: Other than . . . Now, the only thing that you would . . At the marketplace, thats where, where it hurts so bad.

AD: When you say market . . . You mean, if you . . . if you take your stuff in to town to sell?

JT: Yeah. Yeah. Your produce ____ buy it.

AD: Okay. Okay. Okay.

JT: And your cattle.

AD: Okay.

JT: You know. And they would do everything they could, even before you got to the sales place. This guy, right here, I can beat him out of his cattle, you know.

AD: Oh, okay.

JT: You . . . You do, uh . . .the only thing that I, maybe I . . .

END OF TAPE 1, SIDE 2 BEGINNING OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1

AD: Okay. Back up, what they call pen hooking?

JT: Pen hooking. Thats what you call a pen hooker. They would buy them from you before you got to the market and you dont know the worth of it, you know. Ill pay him $100 dollars and run them through the sales and I would get $150 or something like that you.

AD: Oh. Okay.

JT: Yeah. And even . . Even with your tobacco crop. You take your tobacco crop to Lexington, but they are the finest up there. Because the farmers got a quota going and you have to have a marketing cart to set it, you know.

AD: Okay.

JT: But the . . . Hey, how about siding with this crop of tobacco? . . . You know. And some people, you know, theyd been ___________ everything will be _________ the person who sold it to them. But, what ____ with you being black, they figured that you was ignorant and you didnt know anything at all.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: I never did . . I never did pen hook __________.

AD: Okay. Okay. What . . . What did you . . .What did you grow on the farm? What was it, the cows _____.

JT: Well, when corn . . . Well, we did do tobacco in the early days. We grew wheat, some wheat, but you see, it takes ______. It used to . . . When my father and my grandfather were all coming along, we . . . they grew wheat on all these hillsides. They put up these hillsides in wheat and then harvest it with a cradle, you know. With a hand cradle. Yeah, ______.

AD: With the thing that you cut off with your hands?

JT: Yeah. Yeah.

AD: Okay. Okay.

JT: You cut it, you know. And, then, it was _____ They could just lay it in the swallows just almost . . . You could cut it off with a knife, you know. They just . . .

AD: Okay. Okay.

JT: Theres one up here. Theres one up here now, her Daddys. Yeah, old cradle.

AD: Okay. Okay.

JT: So, but, we raised . . . We raised some wheat, but not too many. And then, the Hadens, they . . . We raised it on these ridges. Well, I had . . . I had a crop of wheat once a year since Ive been farming, and I combined it.

AD: Okay.

JT: I feed it to the hogs.

HT: He said combined it. She said whats combining?

AD: Yeah.

JT: Combining? Thats where you go out there and take a combine . . . You dont . . . You dont have to _____ it and put it in sheets and balls like you do.

AD: Okay.

JT: You just run your combine and your combine will stack it, you know, and it comes out and you get the wheat right out of the combine.

AD: Okay. I think. (Laughter).

JT: Yeah. Thats right.

AD: Okay. What . . . What else did you raise?

JT: Well, we raised corn, wheat. There was grain crops.

AD: Okay.

JT: And some rye, and then, tobacco. Tobacco has been just about king.

AD: Okay.

JT: Ever since Ive been born. Its been our bread and our butter and everything.

AD: Okay. Do you still own this land around this house?

JT: Yeah. I own . . . I guess I own 16 acres here and then I got . . . Show her that old _____. Ive got . . . I bought that in 1938. A check I framed it. Id lose it and I would try to find it.

AD: Oh, okay. So, you bought some more . . . Some land?

JT: Yeah.

HT: From the Hadens in 48.

JT: Yeah, 1948.

AD: Okay.

JT: Groundhogs Day, wasnt it? The second day of February.

AD: Yeah.

JT: Nineteen forty-eight.

AD: Okay.

JT: And you notice back then, people wasnt really interested in. They were real conservative people and people said, well, why the . . . Why the 50 cents. _____________ $150 dollars in America and youll find out why that 50 cent was ____ and gave you nothing.

AD: Say you . . . Yeah. Okay. (Laughter). You know, Im saying . . . Is it . . . Im looking at 11,827 dollars and 50 cents.

JT: And 50 cent. And someone said I had more people than enough say, well, why the 50 cents. Well, put it down on paper and count it. Its $150 dollars an acre.

AD: Okay. Okay.

JT: Thats what it worked out.

AD: Okay. Well, Im not good in math, so how many acres is this?

JT: Oh, thats terrible.

AD: Seventy-eight point eight five acres. Okay.

JT: But, you know, that was a mystery. When . . . When they sold them. I was always the first one _____, you know, theres something that says . . . The scripture says dont let your right hand know what your left hand is doing.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: Well, thats the way I was by the white people. I always check on cash.

AD: Okay.

JT: And so I said, Well, I wanted enough land to make me 100 acres.

AD: Okay.

JT: And the lady said to me . . . She said, Joe, she said, If I sell you enough to make you 100 acres, Id never see you no more. Will I? I said youre never going to see me no way because, I says, Im going to buy somewhere if you dont sell it to me.

AD: Okay. Uh-huh.

JT: So, they got busy and so they decided that theyd sell it to me. But, it was . . . They worked to try to work on tricking on me. They didnt want me to get away from them because I was . . .I was more or less their right hand person.

AD: Okay.

JT: I grew up there. I ____ I went there when I was 17 years old. My father was overseer and really, I knew more about it than he did, you know. I knew every lined fence was.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: I knew when we were rotating the crops, where did we plant next year. You know, it was coming to my turn.

AD: Okay.

JT: Which . . . Which field do we start next year on? Which . . . Which field do we go to next year, you know?

AD: Okay.

JT: Where is my lined fence? Where did it start and where did it stop? I knew all those lines.

AD: Hmm-Mmm. Hmm-Mmm.

JT: So, they didnt want me to leave.

AD: Okay.

JT: But anyway, I did stay on them and I stayed on them until 1940 and 1969.

HT: All this was . . .

JT: All of them died. There was the mother and the two daughters. And of the daughters, she was kind of a spoiled brat. She was hard to get along with.

AD: Okay.

JT: And so, uh . . .

AD: This was to the mother, Mrs. Mary Haden and daughters?

JT: Yeah. And daughters. Yeah. Yeah. She had two daughters. And now the older daughter, she would always talk to . . . We called her Miss . . .Her name was Bertha. And we was always taught to call her Miss Bertha.

AD: Okay.

JT: And now, she was more like a mother to me than she was an employer.

AD: Okay.

JT: She was . . . Shed coach me. And I guess shes part of the cause of me being what I am today. She taught me the idea of saving, you know. She made a pack rat out of me. I dont want to get rid of nothing, you know.

AD: Hmm-Mmm. Hmm-Mmm.

JT: And they were that way. They didnt get rid of nothing.

AD: Did you ever have . . . Did you ever have a year bad enough where you had to take another kind of job?

JT: What they ______?

AD: Did you ever have a year bad enough that you had to take another job doing something else?

JT: No. We had one. Nineteen forty-four. I never was more disgusted in all my life.

AD: With the crops?

JT: With the crops. It was third Sunday in August, I believe Im right. We had . . .We put the crop out and it was growing and it just turned dry. And, so, we said . . . I said, well, theres another chance. This is the third Sunday in August. And the tobacco was just about wiped out.

AD: Okay.

JT: We went to Frankfort to visit some people down there. I guess, your father . . . Did they move?

HT: Yeah. Yeah. We moved.

JT: I never was more disgusted in my life. And then, I heard about over . . .We went . . . You know, theres a . . . If youd a went straight on down this road, you would run into what is known as the Valley View Ferry.

AD: Okay.

JT: Theres a ferry that crosses over into Jessamine County.

AD: Okay.

JT: And so we went that way and there was a part over there that was flourishing. The tobacco was done up here just almost ready to harvest.

AD: Okay.

JT: Ours was down here like this and just . . . We couldnt. I said, well, if I knew something . . . If I knew it was kind of like Elijah. If I just knew some secret place where I might find my God. Have you heard that scripture?

AD: Yeah. My daddys a preacher.

JT: Huh?

AD: My daddys a preacher.

HT: Oh!

JT: If I just knew some secret place . . .Well, thats the way I was.

AD: Okay.

JT: If I just knew . . .

AD: Okay.

JT: Somewhere that I could go.

AD: Uh-huh.

JT: Cause this is over.

AD: Yeah. Okay.

JT: This is over.

AD: How did . . . .How did . . . How did . . . What did you do?

JT: Well, I come back home and we went up there to Frankfort and we looked back to the west, to the south, and it was the clouds were there. I hope its raining back home. It sprinkled a little bit and it didnt rain. I come back home and I went to top the tobacco. You know what topping is? Its to break that flower out of it.

AD: Oh, okay.

JT: And then, it spreads out on the top leaves, you know.

AD: Okay.

JT: So, you know . . . So, I went to topping tobacco that day, the next day, and it sprinkled, and it started to come back and it grew out. The awfulest crop of tobacco that I ever seen grew out there. Just about ____ and with the grass was just parched it. You step out on it and it would just . . . Just crush it under your feet. It started and I dont know, that . . . That long drought that had been about 2 or 3 months before it ever run much more than a sprinkle. And, honey, the fields grew up. The grass grew up. It was just so dark green. It put some nitrogen in that earth or something.

AD: Okay.

JT: And the tobacco was just as dark green as it could be. And I had the awfulest crop of tobacco that ever you seen. And that was the third Sunday in August and I didnt think it could ever happen.

HT: When the rain came, what he is trying to say.

AD: The rain came the third Sunday.

JT: The rain came. Yeah.

AD: Okay.

JT: But thats the only time that ever I was just purely disgusted. I thought it was over.

AD: Hmm-Mmm. Hmm-Mmm.

JT: And if I had to . . . I dont know whether I ever mentioned to Hattie or not, but I said if I could just get somewhere, just go somewhere, and get me a job.

AD: Okay.

JT: Hmm-Mmm.

AD: That was that . . . That was that low point?

JT: Yeah. That was the lowest ever I was in farming. Now, we went through some pretty hard drought in 1930. That was a dry year too, but not like 40. I mean, 44.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: Forty-four was the worst one, I think. But, it turned out the best.

AD: Yeah.

JT: It turned out the best.

AD: Okay.

JT: And the 1930 crop, it was, uh . . . It . . . What we had . . . It was real nice tobacco, but we didnt have too much of it.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: But the 1944 crop, all we had . . .Well, we could sell all we could grow on the parcel of land, but now, theyve got us down to poundage.

AD: Thats right.

JT: Yeah.

AD: Yeah.

JT: We can just sell so many pounds, you know. But at that time, we could sell all we grew on our given piece of land. If you had three acres, you say you raised 10,000 pounds on it and you could sell it.

AD: Okay.

JT: But, now, we are on a quota system and you just allowed so many pounds of quota.

AD: Hmm-Mmm. Are you still active? Do you still farm?

JT: Well, ask her.

AD: Does he still farm?

HT: No. Well, he . . . Hes active alright, but thats nothing on the farm.

AD: Okay.

HT: He rents his crop out.

AD: Okay.

HT: And rents his _______ out. And what else?

JT: Ive got a white boy. Hes real nice. Hes real . . . But, he dont do . . . Theres no one that after youve done it all yourself . . . Youve made it. Youve dug it out of the earth. Youve turned over every rock on the hillside, you know, and nobody is going to do it like you want.

AD: Probably not.

JT: No. Theyre not going to take care of things like you want.

HT: But he keeps . . . He keeps busy.

AD: Okay.

HT: He does the yard. He does the yard.

JT: I got up . . . I got up this morning and I left her in the bed and I went and planted potatoes. I got them in the ground.

AD: Okay.

JT: Yeah.

AD: Okay.

JT: And I think . . . I was outside the other day and I had two trees ______ and she got disgusted with me. Are you going to . . . .? I wouldnt do it.

HT: _______.

JT: I wouldnt do it.

HT: ____ broke a leg or something.

AD: Okay.

JT: Yeah.

HT: He made it.

AD: Oh, okay.

JT: But this big one here, Im not going to try it. Ill leave it to someone else. If I dont get it topped, well get it done.

AD: Okay. Uh-huh. Did you ever . . . Uh, uh, join any of the like, social clubs, mens clubs, and stuff like that?

JT: Well, just church groups or something like that. I just . . .

AD: What church? What church are you?

JT: I wasnt in no fraternity or nothing like that.

AD: What church do you go to?

JT: Im a Baptist.

AD: Which . . . Uh, do you go anywhere?

JT: Mt. Nebo.

AD: Hmm?

JT: Mt. Nebo Baptist. Its just a little church.

AD: Where is it? In Mt. Nebo?

JT: Yeah. Off of Jacks Creek Road.

AD: Okay. Is it an old church?

JT: Oh, yeah. It was, uh . . . It was founded in 1870-, 1883, I reckon. Yeah. Theyre going to celebrate their centennial.

HT: Yeah.

AD: So, its Mt. Nebo?

JT: Mt. Nebo.

AD: N-E-B-O?

JT: N-E-B-O.

AD: Okay.

JT: Mt. Nebo.

AD: And has that always been your church home?

JT: Yeah. Yeah. I joined there when I was about 12 years old. My mother belonged there. My daddy belonged there. My brothers and my sisters all belong there. Im the oldest one there. Ive managed to put the doors up compliments of Deacon Joe Cecil . . . Joe Twine in memory of the Twine family.

AD: Hmm-Mmm. Okay. Okay. Is the Twine family the main family in the church? Is it a family church?

JT: No. No. They . . . They never was. No, the Parks . . . The Parks family.

AD: Okay.

JT: It turned out to be that the Parks family, they at one time . . . The Turners was, but you know, they come and they go.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: Now, when the Turners were one time the head family in the church, but now, its the Parks and ______. Lets see, about three . . . Three deacons Parks, aint there? Chris, and Frank.

HT: Chris and Jesse.

JT: And Jesse and Wayne. Four.

HT: Four.

JT: Four Parks deacons. One brother-in-law deacon. Well, two brother-in-laws deacons. ______ and the pastor . . . Parks .

AD: Okay. Is a Parks?

JT: Hmm-Mmm. B.J. Parks.

AD: Alright.

JT: Where do you attend church?

AD: Uh. (Laughter). Well, Im a member of Wesley A. Residing Church in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I attend church irregularly in Lexington, um, with my husband. You know, when . . . when . . . Sometimes I go with him to his church. He is Shallow Baptist.

JT: Hes Shallow.

AD: Uh-huh.

HT: Oh, yeah.

AD: Sometimes I go there.

JT: You all are like Hattie and myself. Shes AME and Im Baptist.

AD: Hmm-Mmm. So, I go with him sometimes, but I dont . . .

JT: Well, tell me now, this church that you belong to . . .

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: Is it the church that . . . That the man that started the African_____ Methodist church. Is it the one?

AD: No, uh, youre AME. Thats Allen.

JT: Yeah.

AD: Allen. Out of Allens school or whatever it was came Warwick, I think his name is, and he set up his church, his congregation in New York, because thats Mother Zion.

JT: Oh, yeah.

AD: Uh-huh. So, Bethel is your first church and we have Mother Zion in New York City.

JT: Yeah.

AD: And you . . . they . . . the AMEs from what . . . 1792 . . .?

JT: Something like that.

AD: And we date ourselves from 1796.

JT: Oh, yeah.

AD: Uh-huh. But I dont know how. . .

JT: Well, Allen . . . Allen, he was founder of . . . When he pulled out from that AME . . .

AD: Thats right. Thats right. He pulled . . . He formed the AME Church.

JT: And he formed it.

AD: Yeah.

JT: And he was . . . He donated this land and that was . . . That land was the first land that was owned by blacks in the United States.

AD: Okay.

JT: I think.

AD: Okay.

JT: If Im not mistaken.

AD: Im not sure about that.

JT: Allen.

AD: Uh-huh. But I do know that we had a running battle because people refused to believe that there were independent black congregations in both the Baptist and the Methodist churches, long before slavery was over.

JT: I know. I know.

AD: See, you know that. You know that. But a lot of people . . .

JT: Yeah. But, uh, now you take a lot of the places like . . . Oh, now Billys . . . Billy Twines . . .

AD: Uh-huh.

JT: And there was a white lady. She come here and she found out that . . . She said that there was a church upon Shallow Fork that was not far from Mt. Nebo that was a white church, and she said that they recognized the blacks as their . . .their bretheren. I dont know.

AD: Hmm-Mmm.

JT: But they are. Now, some of the older celebrities. . . They . . . The Clays and the Bennettes . . . .

AD: Okay. Hmm-Mmm.

JT: And the Barnums. Some of those landowners. Those that come in and took up the land, and they is the ones that belong there.

AD: Okay.

JT: And she said that some of the blacks, I dont know . . .

AD: Okay. Okay.

JT: But, I do know they said that Billy never was much of a Christian, and he didnt go to church but he would take Grandma Lucy. He would sit out under the tree until service was over and then, she would horseback behind him home.

AD: Okay.

JT: Ive heard that now. How true that was, I dont know.

AD: Okay. It sounds kind of like me. Id go, but, you know, Im not religious at it.

JT: Yeah.

AD: Hmm-Mmm. Okay. Listen, I cant think of anything else I need to ask you.

JT: Yeah.

AD: Youre not going to sell me the book, so . . . (Laughter). So, Mr. Twine . . .

JT: Yeah.

AD: Thank you very much.

JT: Okay.

AD: And, what is going to happen is the tapes will go into the archives at EKU.

JT: At EKU.

AD: At EKU.

JT: Yeah.

AD: Okay. So, I will turn them over to, um, once I finish collecting them, Ive got a couple more to do. I will turn all the tapes over to Hayes.

JT: Okay.

AD: And they will be housed in the archives.

JT: Okay.

AD: Alright?

JT: Okay.

AD: Okay.

JT: Okay.

AD: Thank you, sir.

JT: Okay.

AD: And thank you, too.

HT: Your welcome.

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1.